Several readers had mentioned the fact the the "Food Mart" at Magnolia and Wilson catered to the gang-bangers that loiter constantly in front of the store. We decided to stop in and see what sorts of gang-banger apparel we could come across. We were not disappointed.
Hanging from the ceiling are over sized white t-shirts. Where would those come in handy?
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At the checkout counter there is a large selection of necklaces, bracelets, do-rags and even more huge, white t-shirts. Whatever happened to just getting a bag of potato chips at a convenience store? Not in Uptown.
Several readers had mentioned the fact the the "Food Mart" at Magnolia and Wilson catered to the gang-bangers that loiter constantly in front of the store. We decided to stop in and see what sorts of gang-banger apparel we could come across. We were not disappointed.
Hanging from the ceiling are over sized white t-shirts. Where would those come in handy?.jpg)
At the checkout counter there is a large selection of necklaces, bracelets, do-rags and even more huge, white t-shirts. Whatever happened to just getting a bag of potato chips at a convenience store? Not in Uptown.
almost makes you wish the neighborhood had its own Fr. Pfleger ...
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Marcus. Walgreens sells oversized t-shirts and bandanas and I don't think it scares anybody.
ReplyDeleteCan't blame the store for catering to the people who hang around there. Blame whoever's LETTING them hang around there. If I owned that store, I'd stock whatever sold, too. Not like they're selling bullets (right?).
ReplyDeletePS., I have to wonder if it's frowned upon to buy your gold chains at the convenience store - do you think they're really buying them? Somebody stop a gangbanger today and ask them where they bought their chains - come on, just do it, I'm too chicken -
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty ironic that this store sells gang-ware ... because it was featured a couple years ago on Crimewatch, having "successfully" worked with the police and community to remove the gang element from hanging out there.
ReplyDeleteGuess the gang life lure proved irresistable to more than the bangers.
"So your saying over sized white t-shirts, necklaces, bracelets, do-rags, catered to the gang-bangers."
ReplyDeleteYeah poor gangbangers just keep getting picked on. I am sure the fact that the gang hangs 100 yards away has nothing to do with them sellling these items. Let's all keep dressing like the gangbangers and then when we get stopped by cops we can complain that we are being unfairly harrased.
I choose to shop at Mary and Nancy's place down the street.
Yeah this is ridiculous. What was really the point of this post? I guess there was nothing else to write about since there haven't been any recent shootings.
ReplyDeleteAnd FYI I shop there all the time and not once have I seen any "gang bangers" buying jewelry or T-shirts out of there. I would like to think they buy real jewelry when they do buy it. However, take a walk on Magnolia and tell me how many of them you see wearing jewelry.
This is so stereotypical!!!
And what's the big deal with this over sized white T-shirt sutff? If you wear this you are a gangbanger? LOL this is too funny! That's one of the most ignorant things I ever heard. What if the white T-shirt was fitted? Would it be okay then? How about white T-Shirts are extremely cheap and convenient. Go to Walgreens and see how much they are sold for. Yah, 5 for $10. I guess I'm a gang banger/drug dealer too, because when I work out or feel like being comfortable I wear a white t shirt that isn't exactly my size.
ReplyDeleteSome people just make things up!
Not to mention white goes with everything!!! Can't go wrong with white! So why can't people that buy whit e T shirts can't be cheap? Why do they instantly become gang bangers and drug dealers?
ReplyDeletedacutestmama, I'm curious. What is "stereotypical" about the story? The big t-shirts? The death jewelry? It exists (according to the pictures), so how is it "stereotypical"?
ReplyDeleteI'm curious as to what you find objectionable about the story? That gangbangers are being unfairly characterized?
Seriously, what is stereotypical to you?
dacutestmama is an OBVIOUS Shiller troll... just keep that in mind when perusing her comments
ReplyDeleteDacutestmama is right - white does go with everything. Like a glock in your waistband, little zip lock baggies of crack in your back pocket, and a wad of rolled up benjamins in your sock.
ReplyDeleteAlso, giant skull t-shirts are the hottest thing in workout wear this summer. All the condo-dwelling yuppies in my gym are wearing them.
ReplyDeleteSo, when does selling T-shirts and jewelry contributing to crime? If a small percentage of the people that buy these items are gang members, big deal. It's no different than a convenience store in WI selling Harley t-shirts and chains. Sure, there are few bad apples in the group, but the majority of consumers are buying them simply because they think they're cool. I'd rather the store be selling more durable goods like this, rather than liquor which DOES contribute to crime and many of the problems in this neighborhood.
ReplyDeleteThe Fashion Police?
ReplyDeletedacutestmama is a Shiller troll.
ReplyDeleteShe may even be Denise FU Davis who knows. She does take credit for a few of those kids terrorizing Magnolia. She is from the "Hug a gangbanger" mentality. More social programs and less personal responsibility group.
I am sure she does shop there. Buying T-Shirt for her kids she says hang out on Magnolia.
An "No recent shootings"???? Last time I checked there was two last week. That not recent enough for you?
I think what the Mayor Mumbles needs is put in an ordinance that you have to have a special City Business License to sell gang banger clothes.
ReplyDeleteWe know we have a budget shortfall.
btw - Bill Cosby would call it gang ware and be against it as well.
"Gang" apparel? Looks more like punk/heavy metal rock fan gear to me.
ReplyDeleteLOL SHILLERS PRO-GANG trolls are out in force today! This should be an interesting read on all the UU threads...
ReplyDeletegayle said...
ReplyDelete"Gang" apparel? Looks more like punk/heavy metal rock fan gear to me.
Yeah, but it's not punkers or metalheads who are loitering out front, so it must be "gang ware." I'm just glad they're not selling Burberry caps, which would be a sure sign that soccer hooliganism is overtaking Uptown.
Honestly, people. Focus on the conduct, not the clothing. Hip hop fashion went mainstream a long time ago. If you don't believe it, you either don't know anyone with teenage children, or you haven't shopped at a suburban mall lately.
We're adults here so what's the point of name calling just because you don't agree with what I say?
ReplyDeleteAnd why do I have to be pro-Shiller just because I don't agree with what you say or believe?
Too many stereotypes, generalizations and prejudices get thrown around on this website!!
Do you all realize that people have different ideas and won't always conform to YOUR "code of ethics."
It's amazing how people have so much to say while they are in front of a computer monitor. But I bet in the real world less than half of you would even part your lips to say the terrible things you say on here.
Isn't this an area with lots of gangbanging and shootings? Isn't this store merchandise the type of items that we see many gangbangers wear? I'm not so sure what's so difficult to understand here.
ReplyDeleteMy nephew lives in suburbia and likes wearing this type of clothing. Big deal, but he also doesn't live in an area with any gangs. We have had many kids shot at and wounded. Wasn't it not too long ago we had a big gun battle between 2 rival gangs right around here?
No one is saying the store can't sell this type of merchandise. I hope the store continues selling this crap because I'd love to see them go out of business from others boycotting it As much of a jerk that Fr. Pfleger is, he would have his parishioners boycott this store in a heartbeat precisely because of the crap they sell.
I am not anti-have not unless that means I want safe street and a clean neighborhood, well then call me anti have not then I guess.
ReplyDelete"So your saying over sized white t-shirts, necklaces, bracelets, do-rags, catered to the gang-bangers. Why don't you get a bag full of tolerance chips on the way out. Stereotypes are lame! I'm for peace not bigotry"!
ReplyDeleteTell the 'over-sized-white-T-shirt- and-chain-wearing ' gentleman in front of the store that you're for peace. I'm sure he'll agree.
Then tell me where that stereotype came from. And it's 'you're' - not 'your.'
well said, colin. Comeon UU, I'm you can do better.
ReplyDeleteThat's what's wrong with the world today. People don't use common sense logic. Put it this way, based on the majority of people who wear that type of stuff, is that the kind of people you want to babysit your children? Yeah, I know all different kinds of people wear that type stuff. I know good/bad and black/white people wear them so don't give me any crap about stereotyping.
ReplyDeleteUptown
ReplyDeleteJust one perspective of many, but perhaps the Pirate really is on to something despite himself, with his "let's all sing kumbayah."
Not what's wrong with the world, what's wrong with Chicago. Chicago seems to be run by the fear of hurting someone's feelings. Our political leaders have risen to powers by making people scared of hurting others feelings.
ReplyDeleteYou know what? I applaud UU for being ballsy enough to post that. This site has to be about more than Helen, more than Wilson Yard. It has to address problems in the community and open up dialogue. All you people are so mad at UU for posting this. Why don't you go ask Three Harmony how they feel about the neighbors catering to the gang population. Your offended, but they loose money. Your offended but there business hurts. You offended but they have to tell there family why they must go to work in fear. Give me a break and sell the guilt somewhere else.
Where in life does it say it is not ok to offend people? We tolerate the gangs, but does that mean we cant offend people that dress that way? Why do they sell those items? Why do they sell the loose cigars?
Because a gang of thugs live 100 yards away. They live there because stores like this make them feel welcome.
chipdouglas I like a good Black-n-Tan cigar every now and then, surely you're not implying that one need spend a month's salary on a box of Cubans shipped in winkwinknudgenudge, wouldn't that be a little Fred MacMurray elitist of you?
ReplyDeleteThis business is doing what almost any business with brains would do - look at their market/demographics and supply people in the area what they want. Sure, it's a convenience store, but if they can get a few extra bucks out of people with this stuff, then why not? It's about business, not "catering to gangbangers".
ReplyDeleteAnd not all people who are gangbangers look like this. I'm pretty sure they wear certain colors a lot.
So many people complaining about this being posted but i look at it like this, how many comments came off of this post? 33 at my time of posting. and how many comments came from other posts today? little less than 30 (spread over 8 different posts) from what i see. So obviously there's something going here people want to discuss.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm new to the Uptown area and I admit when I first found this site it scared me cause I was only seeing stuff about shootings. But I find I check the site everyday to see whats going on, because the fact that there is a site like this and people comment means people care about where they live, plus you hear more on here than you would see in any paper. Its a nice outlet to see things that affect our neighborhood and so many people from the neighborhood in an open discussion. I wish the other neighborhoods i lived in had this kind of discussion.
Now in this pose one sees people got offended by the stereotyping and what not. Well I just want to say get over it, there will always be something out there that someone will say that will offend you or come off as stereotypical. One person stereotypes the gang members and the next stereotypes the first as an intolerant bigot. Yes stereotypes exist and yes they are usually bad, but we all do it and all fall into one from time to time. Since we are all different people and we can not be programmed to think exactly the same thus eliminating the stereotypes so that no one gets offended. Please by all means say your piece as to why you find it offensive you are entitled to that right, We want to know what you think, but don't get mad if we don't bend over and completely agree with you. Name calling doesn't add anything to the discussion.
I just hope people can tell the difference between kids wearing urban wear and gangbanger. Because to me that's urban wear.
ReplyDeleteIf we are trying to come together as a whole unity community by offend part of that community is not a good start. Because to many people its just clothes nothing more or less. Uptown is diverse because we are so different.
Uniko509 is absolutely correct, UNLESS there is something printed on the shirts that is a gang symbol (like perhaps the skulls), they're just shirts. Where I teach we have a significant Hispanic population and the Latin Kings actively recruit. We are constantly looking at jewelry and clothing for five point crowns, rubber bands on the ankles, etc. The police come in every few years and do a gang presentation. You have to know what you are looking for, otherwise it's just fashion.
ReplyDeleteWalks like a duck, acts like a duck. It's a duck.
ReplyDeleteIn Uptown, we're told to ignore reality. I won't. There are a ton of gangbangers that hang around this store. The store can sell whatever they want. Good for them. But I won't deny what I see.
This is indeed, the corner where a 'shoot out' took place a few weeks ago.
ReplyDeleteYou can't place blame on a 'retailer; who happens to sell this kind of crap, but you can ask yourself why, this kind of retailer would thrive? The answer is, because our Alderman has created a community where criminals, gangs, general mentally corrupt 'people' are given free reign.
We need to put a stop to the notion that Uptown is a Disneyland for the damaged, and dangerous.
If you want to see a Crimewatch story from two years ago on how this particular store was a well-known gang and drug hangout, click
ReplyDeletehere. It's the second story in the broadcast.
Ok I am going to have to agree to disgree. I know gangbanger hang out at the store it's only two store off magnolia and wilson. There are going to hang out at one more then the other that's a given.
ReplyDeleteOh my god I see what helens talking about I am reacting differently then you are because of my experiences. Because I lived a different life as you have. Your not use to seeing people with urban wear on with out you thinking there in a gang because that all you have seen. I am use to people wearing it as urban wear sometime. Their not in gang they just what to look fly.
If you want to see a Crimewatch story from two years ago on how this particular store was a well-known gang and drug hangout, click
ReplyDeleteIt's a good story, although it's talking more about the parking lot being a hangout than the store itself. The telling part of the story is that the problem was solved because the store owner was willing to cooperate, by installing lighting outside the store and removing posters from the store window. That doesn't imply that the store owner is catering to gangbangers, it implies the exact opposite.
truth is, baggy pants and white t-shirts are standard gang banger wear.
[snark]
Yes, and blue jeans were standard gangbanger wear in the 50's right? And everybody that wore blue jeans was in a gang right? Why would anyone sell baggy pants unless they were catering to gangbangers? No kid in their right mind would be caught wearing baggy pants unless they were in a gang!
[/snark]
Seriously, though... From what I've heard gangbangers wear white t-shirts because they want to appear generic, so that they all appear alike. Wearing t-shirts with elaborate and easily identifiable images--like many that the store is selling--doesn't fit in with this M.O.
Therefore, I'm with the dissenters on this one, I don't think the convenience store is the problem. If there was any doubt in my mind, the Crimewatch story cinched it for me.
I think the issue is that the people on this blog (mostly) want to clean up this area and get rid of the gangbangers (there, I said it). So, to see a store selling things we all know gangbangers buy RIGHT BY where they all hang out which is RIGHT BY the location of the shooting raises some red flags. Nowhere did this post say "only gangbangers wear this stuff, so this store is encouraging gang activity by selling it!" I think it got blown way out of proportion. It was just pointing out an issue that we all care about, which is the gangbangers hanging out where they do and why. Aren't we all trying to figure out why they're all here, and how to stop it? I mean beyond "Shiller allows it." Hopefully that was UU's perspective in posting this.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the kids at some public schools that have to wear white shirts? Example Lakeview High School,. I guess if they don't wear the shirts with the collars they are in a gang too.
ReplyDeleteAnd what about the real gang members that don't wear white t shirts? How do you identify them then?
Oh I know!
They have braids?
They wear Gym Shoes?
OR
Their African American and are with more than one other person?
Just Curious
Yes. Exactly. Everyone wearing a white shirt is in a gang, just like every black person is in a gang. That's exactly what we're saying! That's almost verbatim what we all said in our comments! Good work, you detective you! We're all a bunch of racist, stereotyping, rich white people who hate black people. Good call.
ReplyDeleteI don't see this as a race issue, but rather a class issue. Judging from the 450+ people at the Truman meeting to discuss crime and gang warfare, it's obvious that many in the community from all walks of life are concerned about the influence of gangs in this neighborhood. The problem affects everyone, including families with children who are gang members themselves.
ReplyDeleteThe answers are complex, but there's a host of solutions to chip away at the problem. The goal is not to sterilize Uptown into a white bread community, but if we want to be supportive of parents who want the best for their children, then we should expect some type of dialogue about a culture that glorifies violence.
As a social worker, I work primarily with African American families on the Southside. I have met with too many grieving parents who are at a loss with how to loosen the grip of gangs from their injured child.
The dialogue can happen without this being a race issue. Like most people on this board, I abhor racism, so when false accusations of racism appear, it ultimately waters down the real damage that racism causes in all of society.
A quick note... I noticed there's now another "James" on this blog. I know a lot of people with my name, so to prevent any possible confusion, I'll include my last name when I blog in the future.
Yeah, I don't think this post makes much sense. I'd assume gangbangers are more likely to eat junk food also, so maybe McDonald's should be accosted?
ReplyDeleteThank you, James, for clarifying - the other posts didn't sound like you!
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you said, this is a very complex problem and we need to find real solutions. The posts on this thread just show how divisive this issue is. How about talking to the owners and expressing our concerns? Perhaps the block clubs or UCC could do this...
Meanwhile, it couldn't hurt to get educated on gangs. Talk to the police, or better, talk to one of the non-gang residents of the low income housing (like the woman from Magnolia who sent the letter to UU a few weeks back). They probably know more than the police. The condo owners are not going to get rid of the gangs by themselves, we ALL need to work together.
The droopy pants started as a "salute" to ex-cons who had belts taken away while in the big house, nice!
ReplyDeleteThaks for the posting UU. PC >PU!
Supply and demand. Is this really confusing to any of you?
ReplyDeleteI've been visiting this site for months now, but recently it's verging on pointless. Rather than being a space to learn more about our neighborhood, the bitchiness and indignation from the comments is starting to bleed into the main content.
ReplyDeleteThe bizarre mix of white guilt, blind prejudice and internet hyperbole that's become so common here doesn't do anyone any good.
Thanks to all the condo owners with some bizarre persecution complex, internet experts on black people, and hysterical catladies posting on this site, it has become somehow less informative than Chicagoist.
A store is selling shirts for Christ's sake. That's it. Really, think about how stupid this page has become. This is depressing.
Alexander, ask any neighborhood kid who really wants to do well in school and there's your answer about what this type of crap is catering to.
ReplyDeleteThis thread generated a lot of hits for a reason. Helen says it's because of bad apples. You say it's paranoia. Wannabecutemomma says it's racism. The press says it's a war started by condo people who hate the poor. Get real.
There's a phenomenon that has sailed over your head, Helen's and the Trib. A lot of others are getting it and you along with Helen et all will be scratching your heads wondering what the hell happened when this blog phenomenon becomes more popular than it already is to those outside of Uptown
It's not simply the selling of a few white t shirts. You know and we all know that statement is not based in any type of reality. Quit playing us for stupid.
Chipdouglas
ReplyDeleteSee now you're getting very disrespectful. It was pointless of you to bring my children in this conversation.
In no way am I defending drug dealers. I'm actually defending white T shirts. I could care less what is said about them. But something as ignorant as gang bangers wear white t shirts, of course I'm going to say something.
And yes this is a race issue. This country was founded on racism. So you're telling me the only place there isn't racism is in Uptown on Uptown Update. Well I'm not buying it. Save it for your next door neighbor.
It's crazy how thirsty most of you are to classify, generalize and stereotype.
Find something else to do!! Go clean up your block!
HoleyMoley
ReplyDeletePlease refer to my comments before yours and tell me where I mentioned racism. There is a difference between racism and prejudice. Maybe you felt I meant racism because deep down inside you know that's what this is based on.
Or are you a part of the "no snitching" mentality?
ReplyDeleteChip
What the he** does this have to do with what you mentioned before this statement? Because asking a question has nothing to do with "snitching"
Thanks for making my point even clearer. Tossing out false charges of racism is just as harmful as one spouting racist views. Both prevent society from needed healing.
ReplyDeleteHoly, while I respect your opinion, a few things in your response highlighted the problems I have with the tone of the site.
ReplyDeleteI live on Beacon and Leland, so I'm not unaware of the drug dealing taking place on the corners I walk past every day. The uptick in gang violence is obviously something that I recognize, and has me worried for myself, my girlfriend, and the families that live around me.
However, I work every day in Englewood, where violence and poverty and desperation are much persistent and deeply entrenched.
That doesn't mean those problems, while on a smaller scale in Uptown, are any less acceptable in Chicago.
I think Uptown Update's highlighting of community involvement and political participation are a great resource, and I really appreciate them. This is what got me excited about this site. These are the kinds of things we can discuss that actually help the neighborhood, and make people more confident about their future in Uptown.
However, I don't appreciate being lumped in with Shiller because I disagree with you. I also don't appreciate wildly exaggerated claims like "The press says it's a war started by condo people who hate the poor." This isn't accurate or productive by any means.
This site is descending into hysterics and name calling, and that doesn't help encourage an open, mature exchange of ideas.
Instead of looking really, really hard for evidence to convince ourselves that businesses are somehow complicit in gang violence, let's look for actual causes of the problems in our neighborhood, and sensible ways we can get involved to make it a better place.
Okay, dacutestmama, we get it. You think wearing big white t-shirts is okay, and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong and bigoted.
ReplyDeleteHow many more posts do you need to get your point across? Are you going to answer each and every person who doesn't agree with you? Over and over?
If so, I suggest going to blogger.com and starting dacutestmama.blogspot.com.
this whole thread is a bad idea and should be deleted. we've got people playing into shiller's standard response perfectly. i'd rather this website take the one step forward without the two steps back.
ReplyDeleteWhen one's reality is denied, expect anger. When I see this type of merchandise sold in stores in gang infested areas, I don't pretend it's something else than what it really is. Yes we should work on the causes of gang activity. The end of poverty will help do it as will the end of racism. I also want world peace, the end of world hunger, and a clean environment. A cure for cancer would be great too.
ReplyDeleteBack to reality. I don't expect the store to change, but I hope that people start boycotting it as a way of getting the message across that anything remotely related to gangs in a gang infested area is not looked kindly upon.
There are many solutions to this problem in this area. CAPS is the best place for us residents to help resolve them. This blog is one of the best places to highlight the problem. See you at CAPS.
As a long time condo owner here, I have to say I'm with north magnolia, dacutestmama and others in disagreeing with some of the sentiment in this thread and the post that started it. It does seem like urban attire and nothing to do with gang members hanging around or not hanging around. The store owner doesn't have control of loitering in the parking lot and certainly not from persons "100 yards away". If there's a problem with gangbangers loitering in the parking lot, then the obvious answer would be to ask the police how to keep them moving along. It might take contacting the property owner. Whatever way, it would be a far more effective method to the problem that I hear in the thread. Accusing a store owner of promoting gangs because they sell urban attire is like accusing Unique So Chic of promoting obesity because the sell chocolates.
ReplyDeleteRemember also that J.J. Peppers at Lawrence and Sheridan has had all the same problems with loitering in general, gangbangers hanging out in the parking lot, and even drug runners (I believe that's what I witnessed) positioned in front. There was also a shooting in their parking lot not too long ago. J.J. Peppers, however, does not sell t-shirts or jewelry...so I see a disconnect in the theory that selling t-shirts is tied to gang activity. Occam's razor has a better theory that says kids like to loiter at convenience stores, and some kids join gangs, therefore some gang members can be found loitering in front of convenience stores. Nothing more.
ReplyDelete"The store owner doesn't have control of loitering in the parking lot and certainly not from persons "100 yards away". If there's a problem with gangbangers loitering in the parking lot, then the obvious answer would be to ask the police how to keep them moving along." Alan
ReplyDeleteActually, you're partly right there. The store owner is not obligated to address gang activity, but the owner of the building that the store rents from is required. It's called the Gang & Drug House Ordinance. It's a great ordinance that forces property owners to work with the community to lower the incidence of crime.
But come to the next CAPS meeting and offer your suggestions there. Just be prepared that the solutions are ones that involve the community. Asking for more police presence is nice, and while you're there, you might want to suggest for lower taxes, more affordable housing and better schools. Hey, pull all the stops and demand world peace.
If you want to keep shopping there, be my guest. That's the great thing about America. People can shop where they please. I won't shop there until they get rid of that merchandise.
holy moley,
ReplyDeleteIf you want to keep shopping there, be my guest. That's the great thing about America. People can shop where they please. I won't shop there until they get rid of that merchandise.
It certainly is your choice whether to shop there or not. However, I hope you'll at least be consistent, and also boycott this other source of white gang t-shirts:
Gangbanger Online Shop
UptownWalker-
ReplyDeleteLast we checked, the profits from selling "white gang t-shirts" did not benefit the community. Nor do we see any death's head necklaces in our not-for-profit shop. Nice try. You also don't see too many loiterers outside our online "Cafe Press Shop" intimidating residents who just want to spend their hard-earned money in their community. Now if we could just get the gang-bangers to wear some nice PINK UU t-shirts. Yea, that's the ticket!
Uptownwalker.....now you're just being silly, right?
ReplyDeletewow, i guess the people who operate this blog and who post here can say basically whatever they want, that's their right. but there is definitely a HUGE double standard when making sweeping, generalized statements about certain segments of the population who wear certain clothes or shop at certain stores. there is a lot classism and stereotyping of people who dress a certain way.
ReplyDeletefor example, if i were to submit a story about "the violent condo-owners" who contribute to property taxes rising which leads to low-income people having to find new places to live (of course this is a very over-simplified version of the story like how white tees leads to violence) and took pictures of their nice cars or designer dogs or the pricey bars they get drunk at or where they buy their polo shirts and dockers and where they buy their cubs gear, and how we should try to get these places shut down to force them out of here, i highly doubt it would be allowed up on this site. and if it were, i would be attacked for being unreasonably stereotypical.
and to accuse someone who takes issue with this article and pictures as a "Shiller troll" is rediculous. if people really want to work with people different from them in this neighborhood to find solutions to our common problems, i think they would/should think twice about what they post on this site, especially if it blatantly targets people who wear certain clothes.
and DACUTESTMAMA, (and anyone else for that matter) i think it would be a valuable education for a lot of the young people in the neighborhood to see some of the things that are posted on this site about them and their peers. i'm thinking about some ways of doing that and would appreciate some feedback.
Troll alert. Trust your gut instincts and use the highly honed skills you developed with spotting gangbangers to help you with spotting trolls. Uptownwalker is using an old familiar username from someone else to help cover his tracks but the stench is definitely from the common troll variety that surfaces on UU now and then.
ReplyDeleteUU,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, lighten up. It was a joke, albeit a pointed joke. Not much different from many of the jokes you make on this blog, in fact. Now with that said...
Last we checked, the profits from selling "white gang t-shirts" did not benefit the community.
So the profits of a sale have to benefit the community...or else they support gangs? Your argument makes no sense. In fact, on the flip side, there's nothing to stop someone from selling gang apparal and donating the proceeds to charity. Someone could even start a not-for-profit whose mission statement was to support gangs.
Nor do we see any death's head necklaces in our not-for-profit shop. Nice try.
Nice try yourself. So what if you did sell death's head necklaces? It wouldn't mean you support gangs. That's the whole point that most people opposing your post are trying to make. Just because you claim something does (or does not) support gang activity doesn't make it so. The evidence does not support your claim in this case.
You also don't see too many loiterers outside our online "Cafe Press Shop" intimidating residents who just want to spend their hard-earned money in their community.
And how are the loiterers the fault of the store? You claim they are, but I (and many others) disagree. In fact, according to the Crimewatch story that was posted, the owners of the store cooperated fully with the community to address the gang problem. Apparently they don't get any credit for that? That doesn't speak to their intentions? I also commented on the gang activity at J.J.Peppers to illustrate how chronic gang loitering outside a convenience store can happen even without selling so-called "gang" apparal. Any comment on that?
In my opinion your post was not very well thought out, and irresponsible in its accusations. It's just my opinion...I'm sure you can take a little criticism, can't you? For the good of the community?
for example, if i were to submit a story about "the violent condo-owners" who contribute to property taxes rising which leads to low-income people having to find new places to live (of course this is a very over-simplified version of the story like how white tees leads to violence)
ReplyDeleteRon, let me explain something to you. This is a blog. It has a viewpoint and an attitude. It's not, and isn't trying to be, the Tribune or CNN.
If you would like to post photos of the hated Uptown homeowners' Cubs gear and "designer dogs" and nice cars, go right ahead. Go to www.blogger.com and start a blog. You can post anything you want, within Blogger's terms of service. You, too, can have a viewpoint and an attitude, and attract readership.
That's exactly what the people who started this blog did. It's their canvas. And a similar, free, canvas is available to you! To anyone!
and DACUTESTMAMA, (and anyone else for that matter) i think it would be a valuable education for a lot of the young people in the neighborhood to see some of the things that are posted on this site about them and their peers. i'm thinking about some ways of doing that and would appreciate some feedback.
Let me assure you, too, Ron, that if you decide to bring your Couraj/Copwatch/Catholic Worker folks here for the sole purpose of inundating this blog with disruptive comments and flame wars, we're not going to let that happen.
holy moley,
ReplyDeleteUptownwalker is using an old familiar username from someone else to help cover his tracks but the stench is definitely from the common troll variety that surfaces on UU now and then.
And how long have you been posting, holy moley? I assure you I am the original and authentic UptownWalker, the one who started posting many years ago on Buena Park Neighbors, and on the Beacon Street board before that (anyone remember that board?). Just because I disagree with you or Uptown Update at times doesn't make me a troll. Are you going to accuse Irish Pirate of being a troll next?
I think this was a good posting/story.
ReplyDeleteObviously, it inspired quite a bit of comments.
Why not call attention to an area in Uptown, that
seems to draw loitering?
Rich or poor, veryone wants to minimize crime, right?
Uptownwalker, your joking around and messing with people is what trolls do. If you don't want to be accused of being a troll, I suggest you not act like one.
ReplyDeletePosting a reasoned opinion is welcomed. Trolling is not.
All to funny the treads on this post.
ReplyDeleteDacutestbabiesmomma throws out the old racist card, and Ronald McDonald Durham throws out every "condo" steriotype in the world. Um...I do need to get a dog though. And my nice car??? Well the bumber is hanging off. But my Cubs gear..well rest assured it is..what am I saying...I hate beseball.
I do wish all the people who defend the white shirt wearing Uptown kids would walk in front of the rest of us condo owners to the L stop everyday so we can avoid the bullets. Maybe your hugs will stop the bullets. Tear.
This store started selling the "gang" gear only 1 year ago. Before they had none of this. Why is that? Um maybe is it because the BLACK p Stones moved back in last year. Oh,and whats up with the name BLACK p stones? Why is that not racist against whites? Can I join?
holy moley,
ReplyDeleteUptownwalker, your joking around and messing with people is what trolls do.
So, you ARE calling Irish Pirate a troll! Seriously though...if making a pointed joke is the trademark of a troll, then you might as well just accuse everyone here of being a troll. Or maybe you should actually learn what the definition of a troll is.
If you don't want to be accused of being a troll, I suggest you not act like one. Posting a reasoned opinion is welcomed. Trolling is not.
Well, first of all this is not your blog, so you can't really set policy about what is welcome and what is not. Letting that go, however, I encourage you to give an example of when my opinion has not been a reasoned one. Or do I have to agree with you 100% for my opinion to be considered reasoned?
chipdouglas,
ReplyDeleteThis store started selling the "gang" gear only 1 year ago. Before they had none of this. Why is that? Um maybe is it because the BLACK p Stones moved back in last year.
Gangs have been in Uptown for many decades, so can you please explain your logic here? Why would a store suddenly decide to sell wares with only a single gang in mind as a customer? Wouldn't that incur the wrath of the other gangs?
Jeeze, I chuckled when I followed UptownWalker's link! I guess that's just my sense of humor...
ReplyDeleteuptownwalker......you're grabbing at straws now.
ReplyDeleteYou're clouding the issue. Who on earth is 'for' the loitering, and general gathering of gangs?
If you are, you are part of the problem.
This issue is about the spreading of crime in uptown.
It's that simple.
The solution is addressing these 'hot spots'
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ReplyDelete'geez' Andy, as you say.....I'd like to think there's no problems brewing in this parking lot.
ReplyDeleteI hope that's true.
stark mad,
ReplyDeleteYou're clouding the issue. Who on earth is 'for' the loitering, and general gathering of gangs?
You call it clouding the issue, I call it disagreeing with an over-simplification of the issue.
If you are, you are part of the problem. This issue is about the spreading of crime in uptown.
It's that simple.
The solution is addressing these 'hot spots'
No, of course I'm not 'for' those things, but no--it's not that simple.
The Crimewatch clip revealed that the convenience store cooperated with the community to address the loitering in the past, and I gave an example of another store with just as big a gang-loitering problem that doesn't sell any apparal at all. The claim that the apparal this store is selling directly or indirectly leads to loitering or gang activity is not based on any evidence that's been presented so far. How is it clouding the issue to point this out?
Uptownwalker, I don't think the merchandise in that store helps with alleviating the problem with gangs there. You think it doesn't matter. That's cool. I won't shop there and you will. God I love America. We can both be free to shop where we choose.
ReplyDeleteWhen you are "just messing" with a little joke about your link to the UU shirts, I can assure you that you will be perceived as a troll. I know that may be completely shocking to you, but just keep that in mind the next time you want to pull another little funny. The troll's next excuse is typically to say it was to "lighten it up". I think it's safe to say your attempt to "lighten it up" didn't work.
Would you agree there's a problem with gangs at that spot? Would you then agree it needs to be addressed? Would you then agree to go to CAPS to help address the problem? Now that wasn't so bad, was it?
Why does anytime people on this blog disagree with what they other says they are called trolls and what are trolls? is someone who posts controversial and irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
ReplyDeleteMostly Everybody on topic. It may be different views of the topic but we are on the same page we just see it differently. And having different ways have getting it across on the blog.
uptownwalker ~ that link was funny .I needed to LOL.
ReplyDeletenorth magnolia,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you enjoyed the link. I simply couldn't resist the temptation.
holy moley,
When you are "just messing" with a little joke about your link to the UU shirts, I can assure you that you will be perceived as a troll.
God, I love America too! You can choose to perceive me as a troll, and I can choose to be amused by your lack of a sense of humor.
You've been posting as "holy moley" for about a month. I've been posting as "uptownwalker" on various forums for years. I have given reasons and examples that support my opinion, yet you have chosen to keep calling me a troll rather than to have a debate. I'm confused...who's the troll here?
86 comments? I'd say no one's refusing to have a debate here.
ReplyDeletetrumansquarenabr,
ReplyDeleteAs I think you know, I wasn't talking about the general public not having a debate. I was referring to just one poster who fancies themselves to be an expert on trolls.
When you take a comment I make about gangs and then place a link to show more "gang" material that is selling UU T-shirts, you are not dialoguing about gangs anymore.
ReplyDeleteIf you want reasoned dialogue, go for it. You see the T-shirts and other items as not gang related. Go for it and shop away at the store. Your opinion is your opinion and mine is mine. I've seen gang members run in there fast and then come out wearing a different T-shirt. But hey, maybe they felt really desperate to make a sudden new fashion statement.
I want to stop the gang activity in that area and I will do something about it. What's not clear to me is whether or not you will. Will you?
"And how are the loiterers the fault of the store?"
ReplyDeleteSeems to me that the whole point of this post was to answer that question. Maybe they hang out there because they feel welcome by the store's merch that specifically caters to them. Yeah, I know it's "urban wear," blah blah blah, but it does LOOK similar to what the Black P's who hang out right next to the store wear. So, the loiterers are the fault of the store because they're selling items to encourage them to come back, and stay close by. If a group of elderly people were filling up the parking lot with their wheelchairs, and that was really bugging the community (and threatening their safety, stay with me here), and the store started selling Bengay and Ensure and whatever, the community might get a little pissed off that the store was encouraging them to stick around. I think that's all this post was trying to point out. The store selling those items feels like a slap in the face to those of us who are trying to get rid of them. It's like if we were all trying every day to get rid of rats, and then the store started putting out rat candy.
As I said in the 4th comment on this post, the store's just trying to make some money. I'm sure they're not TRYING to encourage gang activity in Uptown. But the point of the post was that we should recognize it as an issue and possibly a part of the problem. At least that was my interpretation, and my opinion. I'm done now.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad I'm not alone in citing the hysterical nature of this blog. I found this place right after a drive by shooting occurring on my street corner, and liked being made aware of the issues and what people are doing to address the violence. I'm afraid, however, with all this attention UU has been getting lately, that a portion of participants around here really do feel entitled to maintain the 250% plus rise in property value despite moving here knowing exactly what they were getting into. I, for one, won't be wearing the t-shirt.
ReplyDeleteI never knew gangbangers wore over sized white t-shirts until the police officers at our CAPS meeting told us so, so this post on UU is completely valid.
ReplyDeleteWhirlofagirl,
You're not paying attention, people care way more about living and not getting shot than they do about property values.
A lot of us want to live here for a long time, not just see our property values increase and leave, Your comment was a bit ignorant.
OK, NOW I'm angry! :-)
ReplyDeleteDon't start hatin' on the clothing stores on Clark St.! They sell fantastic clothes and accessories for us ladies at WAY below retail prices - of course, that's because they are wholesale houses! :-)
Trust me...you don't want to tick off Red Hat Society Nation, of which I am a member and therefore a very grateful and steady customer of the Clark St. emporia. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, contact www.redhatsociety.com. :-)
HEY - THE CUBS AND SOX BOTH WON - SO WE'RE CLOSER THAN EVER TO A RED-LINE SERIES IN OCTOBER! LIFE IS GOOD! :-)
LOL, gayle. I wouldn't want to tic off the red hat ladies! That would be a whole mess of trouble that I wouldn't want coming my way... PS-are there good bargains on Clark Street? I've never been in to any of those wholesale stores.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, I have stayed out of this thread so as an observer I would just like to encourage all involved to stay cool. Although it is often difficult, I hope we are able to keep (and even increase) the variety of perspectives here without people getting worn out and giving up. I mean, could you even imagine how a "conversation" like this would happen in real life? It wouldn't. I think there are a lot of conversations in Uptown that have never happened so I would hate to lose this popular vehicle for attempting to have them.
Carry on!
Saskia (grimacing...with one eye open and the other one squeezed shut.)
Oversized white t-shirts are an indicator of gang activity. However, they require an additional shirt beneath them.
ReplyDeleteThe baggy white tshirt conceals another tshirt. If one commits a crime or one needs a quick change in appearance, they remove the white shirt, throw it away, and BANG, new appearance that won't fit any description of a witness or another gang member looking for them.
[Don't they all sell products that are bad for us?]
ReplyDeleteAndy: If I poison myself have I damaged the people around me? In certain cases, yes. As for Starbucks, 711, or Subway, not a chance in hell I've damaged anyone else.
Saskia and others - Yes, there are great bargains to be had on Clark St. which is why I don't want those stores eliminated. (Maybe a city grant for "facade improvement" but please please please let them stay!!!)
ReplyDeleteEspecially if you are really into accessories such as hats, scarves, costume jewelry and purses. (And what woman isn't?) Trust me, I've bought stuff on Clark st. for about one-third of what it listed for at downtown stores!
Unfortunately, the store that sells designer fragrances doesn't do much discounting. :-(
The droopy pants started as a "salute" to ex-cons who had belts taken away while in the big house, nice!
ReplyDeleteThaks for the posting UU. PC >PU!
Actually, droopy pants is a throw-back to slavery times. When slaves were given ill-fitting clothes, the would drop the waistband down so the bottom of the pants at least reached their ankles. From what I've been told, when people started wearing this look by choice, it was a testiment to those who were enslaved and unable to own/afford clothes that fit properly. It's become a hip-hop staple since then.
"Caring Neighbor",
ReplyDelete"Let me assure you, too, Ron, that if you decide to bring your Couraj/Copwatch/Catholic Worker folks here for the sole purpose of inundating this blog with disruptive comments and flame wars, we're not going to let that happen."
okay, i know you like to play the role of enforcer here (well only toward me and "dacutestmama") so i'm not surprised about this comment. i haven't "brought" any of "my folks" here to this blog. I actually can't say that i know anybody who has posted about this story. and a few more things:
i know this blog is not neutral or objective! but i do think that many who run it or post regularly do attempt to portray it as such. i've heard people directed to it many times in CAPS meetings even by paid CAPS employees. if it is just a blog with "an attitude" then maybe it shouldn't be announced to people at CAPS meetings (run by the police who are public employees) as a site "for good information about the community."
furthermore, many people on this blog and the candidate for alderman many of you support, constantly talk in public meetings (when you have to show your face) about how much you care for the kids of the neighborhood and how their safety is just as important as your safety and the issue of safety is a common problem and we're all united -- black, white, low-income, higher-income -- to solve these problems. then some people come on the blog with aliases or handles or whatever they're called and post this very classist, ethnocentric, xenophobic story about young people in the neighborhood that completely disrespects their style of clothing and equates a style of clothing with violent behavior.
you can't have it both ways. you can't claim to be an objective source of information one day and a blog with an attitude the next. you can't be taken seriously as someone who cares about young people in the community one day when the next day you post a story like this or condone its posting or remain quiet about it.
the posting of this story speaks VOLUMES about the biased and prejudiced opinions not only of many who comment here but of the operator(s) of the blog as well. and for many of the people who do normally post here but don't agree with the message of this post, you should say that. if i were to take a copy of these pictures and thread to young people in the neighborhood, it would do wonders to educate them about how they're perceived by some people in the neighborhood. Actually, it would probably just confirm the feelings they already have.
Saskia, i must say respectfully that i wonder why all of a sudden you just want to observe this thread and not comment (for the most part). in the past many of your posts have hinted at your comapssion for people and it seems like this thread would be a good space for your opinion...
and Caring Neighbor, i don't think that my expressing my opinion about this story (and not attacking anyone presonally) is disruptive. why do my comments seem disruptive to you as opposed to being part of a debate?
and fianlly, "chipdouglas," my stereotypical comments about "condo-owners" was posted in jest to highlight the stereotypical nature of the original post. and your reaction to it proves my point that if the shoe were on the other foot, and the majority of the people on this blog were the targets of similar sterotypes, it would not be accepted. but put up some comments about young people on Magnolia and it's all good! hey, it's even fun as some people have stated! look at all the people who have commented!
Farrell..
ReplyDeletenot true, the sagging pants look started out in LA in the early 80's after prisoners belts were taken away in prison. They then took the look back to the streets after they got out.
FYI-
ReplyDeleteaccording to Wikipedia and Anne Hollander's book Sex and Suits, the business suit originates from European midieval armour! So it is actually derived from combat settings. watch out for those violent mf'ers in business suits. if you see one, call 911, those suits were designed for warfare!
I think it's unfair to accuse Ron and his memebers of taking over this blog.
ReplyDeleteWe all know Ron's group has no memebers any longer and they have become a punch line.
How must that feel Ron to become irrelivant? That must suck knowing you put in all that hard work only to become Shiller's pawn with no originality.
How bad is it that the only way to get your "groups" message out is to post on a blog where the people laugh at you when they pass you on the street.
There's a relatively simple answer to your question, Ron. After some pretty long posts last week I tried to give myself an uptown update timeout and I didn't check into the blog. This posting, however, got kind of hot and heavy over the weekend and rather than jump into the fray I decided to stay out this round. I do however get concerned when things get overheated because I really don't want everyone to go away. It happened after the rally. Talking is good; burnout is bad.
ReplyDeleteI post a lot and I think I will continue to do so but I really want to avoid pontificating. It seemed to me that all the perspectives where being covered so why not sit this one out. PEACE.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree Chip. I have heard of the LA prison version of the story too, but they weren't the first to do it.
ReplyDeleteMuch like the way these gangs work together nowadays is not one iota different than how various mobs worked together to turn a profit.
As far as the white t-shirts, this is a stupid story. Every dollar store and Walgreens in the city sells white T-shirts. And they sell Sudaphed. So I guess Walgreens should be banned because they promote gangbanging and drug abuse.
I do think gangs use all white, or all black T-shirts yes... but layer over other t-shirts so they can ditch the one on top if the cops are called on them. A couple of years ago, the GAP had commercials featuring people wearing khaki pants and white t-shirts, for a while, that was the yuppie uniform.
Can we get back to real issues now?
A little off-topic, but here's a site that talks about the origin of the baggy clothes:
ReplyDeleteBaggy pants origin
Farrell you dare disagree with Chip Douglas? I challenge you to a duel across Wilson at 4:30 sharpe. You choose the weapon. Ill bring snacks.
ReplyDeleteI guess it's the hypocracy of the whole thing that kills me. It's almost like having that "smoke" shop right across from two methadone clinics. Really there is nothing wrong with it being there, but damn lets not try to encourage it. You know?
Interesting link regarding baggy pants...
ReplyDeleteI got a totally different version of the story from someone who became enraged when I mentioned that I hate the baggy pants look. Just my personal preference, I'm not a fan of it.
She went into lecture mode and told me a completely different version of this story, that she was taught in a Black History course.
Any irrelevant to the original post - which is already irrelevant to begin with.
okay, i know you like to play the role of enforcer here (well only toward me and "dacutestmama") so i'm not surprised about this comment.
ReplyDeleteNo, Ron, I don't like playing the role of enforcer. I like it when everyone plays nice in the sandbox.
Every single person who administrates this blog has the power to delete posts, and doesn't hesitate to do so. I'm the only one who tries to explain my reasoning. Maybe I should just start deleting and not explaining. Would that make you happier? And take off the freaking hair shirt. Sorry if you feel like you and DaCutestMama are in the cross-hairs. Not true.
Do I disagree with most of what you say and stand for? Sure. But the fact that you, the Trott family, DaCutestMama, etc., post here consistently speaks rather loudly that it's not my, or anyone's personal opinions that guide who posts and who doesn't.
i haven't "brought" any of "my folks" here to this blog.
Read carefully, Ron. "If you decide to bring your Couraj/Copwatch/Catholic Worker folks here for the sole purpose of inundating this blog with disruptive comments and flame wars, we're not going to let that happen." We learned a lot after the flame war attack of the trolls after the anti-violence rally in June that somehow threatened the Shilleristas. It won't be allowed to happen again.
i know this blog is not neutral or objective! but i do think that many who run it or post regularly do attempt to portray it as such. i've heard people directed to it many times in CAPS meetings even by paid CAPS employees. ... you can't have it both ways. you can't claim to be an objective source of information one day and a blog with an attitude the next.
So the people who contribute to this blog have somehow hypnotized the people who speak at CAPS and what, paid off, the CAPS employees? Let's get it straight. No one who administrates this blog works for CAPS. Offhand, I can't think of anyone who administrates this blog who's raised a hand to speak at a CAPS meeting. (We all go to different meetings, so I can't be sure that no one here has spoken there.)
If you have a problem with people referencing this blog, well, bring it up with the folks who are doing it. It ain't us. And trust me, we don't have the money to bribe people to promote us.
We're gonna have to disagree on just about everything. I make no apologies for thinking gangbangers are thugs and detrimental the neighborhood. I think capitalism is just grand. I think Helen Shiller lost her path and effectiveness long ago. And I don't think the cops are the reason Uptown has crime.
Call me an enforcer, call me a bigot, call me an idiot. I don't care. I've lived here longer than you've been alive, and I may be here long after you've moved. In the meantime, we're just going to have to tolerate each other's presence.
"caring neighbor,"
ReplyDeletei'm not on this blog nearly as much as other people but i've only seen you target me and "dacutestmama" with threats of deleting posts.
read through all of my posts and tell me where i have personally attacked anyone or threatened anyone, really, do it. in fact, people tend to send personal attacks my way quite often (including one on August 5th about a bullet getting sent my way that was never deleted by you or anyone else). it's fine with me but your continued double standard is very clear.
what posts of mine do you think are candidates for removal, and why? really, i want to know what i've said that you think is inappropriate? can anyone sels tell me? is it because we feel differently about the issues that you need to threaten or warn me about what i post. i have never seen you do that to anyone who agrees with you. it's immature i think.
and i think i always have tolerated the presence of others on this blog and in the community. your threatening to delete my comments for no substantial reason is indicative of a potential intolerance on your part.
and to tell me not to get my friends to inundate this blog with comments or flame wars. why do you think i would be involved in that, i don't even know what the hell a flame war is.
have i ever been involved in that sort of disruption? and have i ever brought people here to disrupt?
as someone who uses my real name on this blog and who is willing to take responsibility for what i say, i think you're targeting the wrong person "caring neighbor."
caring neighbor,
ReplyDeleteplease "explain you reasoning," after reading your post again i see you haven't done that at all...
Ron, you are a part of COURAJ and that group is known for lying. Mark Kaplan was even sued by a police officer for getting kids to issue false reports of police brutality. So it's like this Ron. When you hang around with the wrong crowd, you're going to get blamed now and then.
ReplyDeleteAs I recall, when there was a discussion about gangs, you focused on the armed forces acting like gangs. So Ron, you just don't have a lot of credibility. Now you're playing a victim. Gee, who did you learn that from.
She went into lecture mode and told me a completely different version of this story, that she was taught in a Black History course.
ReplyDeleteWell, I dare say I've been black for a pretty long time and all of that crap about baggy pants being some sort of cultural/heritage touchstone is a bunch of, well, crap. It personally drives me up the f*cking wall when someone, especially a black person, tries to ascribe crap like this to part of "our history." Screw then and the half-a**ed theory they rode in on.
Wow, where did THAT come from? sorry...
ron ~ I couldn't agree with you more. I comments about the unityfest not being on UU and why I think that was. It got delete. Its is a lot of double standard go on UU I see it and read it all the time on here. I see nothing wrong with what you or dacutestmama have said.
ReplyDeleteWhat they are doing it's in the bible. I have to ask my mom about it but its somewhere in the bible.
Well I get delted often and I would shoot myself before I would ever agree with Ron or North Magnolia.
ReplyDeleteSo please go sell victim on another blog.
Man on the Street - I wish I knew you then! You could of backed me up. I made a simple observation regarding a fashion choice I don't particularly like... and the next thing I know, I was getting ripped up one side, down the other and was just short of being called a racist because of my views. I think she only held back on that because at the time we were 'friends'.
ReplyDeleteThen she proceeded to tell me that white people, nor any other minority can claim the word 'racism'. They can state that someone is 'prejudiced' against them, but can't claim the word 'racism' because only black people have been victims of that. Again - learned from the same college professor.
Needless to say, I never again mentioned anything regarding fashion choices of anyone - not even nuns, in front of this chick.
I'm glad she was wrong to begin with... I just wish I could of told her then!
Wait Chip not yet. Put on a white shirt first!!! I meant white T-shirt!!! Sorry a white oversized T-shirt!!! And don't forget the shirt underneath!!!! Make shooting a gun typical based on what you're wearing!!!!
ReplyDeletemy muscles fill out those baggy white shirts.
ReplyDeleteAnd the only guns I have are my huge arms.
allriiiiight gigiddy gigiddy
OKay Deebo! (deep voice)
ReplyDeleteNow I'm intimidated by you!(soft voice)
North Magnola-
ReplyDeleteAbout "Unity Fest"...
An explanation was already posted but here we go again:
We have been promoting every block party and function that has been sent to us. NO ONE from the Alderman's office sent us information on the "Unity Fest," therefore, nothing was posted. If there is something they want promoted, it takes 2 seconds to send an email. So much for "unity."
Ron, I'm so glad you "tolerate the presence of others" on this blog. As someone likes to say, LOL.
ReplyDeleteIf you send an email to uptownupdate@hotmail.com, pointing out the post where someone threatened to send a bullet your way, it will be deleted. If you don't, well, keep enjoying the victimhood.
I'm not interested in getting into any further debate with you. It's like pouring gas on a fire, and you like the heat. Keep on making me your lightning rod for All That Is Wrong About Uptown, but it doesn't mean I'll participate.
I'm done. There's enough nonsense on this thread already ("gigiddy gigiddy"!!??) without you and me going at each other any longer.
I'm loathe to comment seeing 90% of this thread is by probably a single troll.
ReplyDeleteBut I am amazed by the attacks on UU. You'd think the complainers own stock in Hanes or something. Last time I checked, even sane people in love with "urban culture", value safety higher than fashion sense. You telling me that the whole order of urban culture would be thrown into chaos if a store 100 yards from the epi-center of all gang activity in our neighborhood stopped selling gang paraphenalia?
Oh, but I forget, it's all about finding offense where none need be taken. So posit that some non-gang member wears white t-shirts and the whole thing must be condemned as evil. Yep, that's the type of logic that's governed this neighborhood for decades now.
Somehow I don't think anyone who is sane and loves this "urban wear" would actually complain about this post. Unless everyone is willfully blind to all the other evidence (i.e., the multiple gang shoot outs that happen across the street each week) that suggests this is a problem at this location.
But forgive me, I'm one of those fools who thinks the sacred right to white t-shirts should be placed lower on the hierarchy of rights than public safety. But what do I know..
jack,
ReplyDeleteOh, but I forget, it's all about finding offense where none need be taken.
Yes, that's right. Uptown Update posted, railing against what a convenience store was selling. He found offense where none needed to be taken.
So posit that some non-gang member wears white t-shirts and the whole thing must be condemned as evil. Yep, that's the type of logic that's governed this neighborhood for decades now.
So Uptown Update posits that a store is selling apparal that some gang members happen to wear, and therefore the whole store must be condemned. Ignore the logic that Walgreens also sells this apparal, and that many kids that aren't in gangs wear this apparal, and that other convenience stores that don't sell this apparal have just as big a problem with gang loitering...
Unless everyone is willfully blind to all the other evidence (i.e., the multiple gang shoot outs that happen across the street each week) that suggests this is a problem at this location.
Nobody is denying there is a problem at this location (loitering in the parking lot). The objections are to the unfounded claim that the apparal the store is selling contributes to the problem. There has been loitering and shootings in the J.J.Peppers parking lot too...are we to deduce that selling potato chips is the problem?
But forgive me, I'm one of those fools who thinks the sacred right to white t-shirts should be placed lower on the hierarchy of rights than public safety.
And I'm one of those fools that thinks that if the sale of white t-shirts were banned throughout the entire world, we would not see the slightest decrease in gang activity as a result. However, if you ban potato chips, you just may see a slight decrease in the number of kids loitering.
So Uptownwalker, again, are you willing to work with CAPS to address this problem of gang activity? Forget the gd T-shirts. Are you willing to work on the gang problem? You never once answered that question.
ReplyDeleteSo Uptownwalker, again, are you willing to work with CAPS to address this problem of gang activity?
ReplyDeleteI've been working with CAPS for the past seven years--ever since I moved to Uptown. Thanks for asking. I have said over and over again that I don't deny there is a gang or loitering problem in Uptown or even in this store's parking lot. I have also said over and over again that I don't think the store's selling of apparal has anything to do with it. Get it? Good!
Forget the gd T-shirts. Are you willing to work on the gang problem? You never once answered that question.
Well, now I've answered. Are you happy? Forgive me for answering so slowly...I have a bad habit of not putting great effort into answering the questions of people who consistently call me a troll. My bad. Now, aren't there some of my questions that you haven't yet answered? I'm still waiting for you to give me an example of something I've said that you consider to be an "unreasoned" opinion...and why? How about it?
Check out post number 50 here. This is what Ron is talking about. Delete it or perhaps he will chain himself to a building somewhere until Federal Marshals take him away. I suspect Ron actually doesn't want the post deleted. He likes to feel like a martyr. That stint in the federal joint for protesting the big bad military shows that.
ReplyDeleteIt must be nice to have all the answers. If only I were 12 years old I too would have all the answers. Now if you will excuse me my Citizens for Nader Committee meeting is about to start. I need to bring the cookies.
"I'm still waiting for you to give me an example of something I've said that you consider to be an "unreasoned" opinion...and why? How about it?"
ReplyDeleteSure, when you made the link to the UU T-shirts. It was then that I mentioned you were a troll. I said that a couple of times.
You have also given some weird analogies which are always a lousy form of argument but I took that as your attempts to reason. I disagree with your reasoning there, but that didn't have me thinking you were a troll. I thought something else.
Good kids do dress Urban, unfortunately they also get killed mistakenly for embrassing that look by real bangers all the time. Mistaken police harassment is the least of their worries.
ReplyDeleteParents who let their kids look like thugs are either in denial of what their kid really is or just can't figure out how the world works.
Thanks, IP, I went to the post you linked to and the comment is gone, so I imagine another admin took care of the situation.
ReplyDeleteInteresting we heard from you and no one else about where to find and delete it. Thank you.
holy moley,
ReplyDeleteSure, when you made the link to the UU T-shirts. It was then that I mentioned you were a troll. I said that a couple of times.
So, my linking to the U T-shirts makes me a troll...but you making a link, based on no evidence, between the apparal the convenience store is selling and gang activity, makes you a debater? The whole point of my link was to illustrate the missing link in that kind of "logic".
You have also given some weird analogies which are always a lousy form of argument but I took that as your attempts to reason.
I'm not sure what weird analogies you're referring to, but let's run with your opinion that analogies are a lousy forms of argument. It would still be better than a logical fallacy, such as confusing cause and effect. That is what you're doing by making the assumption that selling certain types of apparal leads to gang activity, especially when there is evidence to the contrary.
Good kids do dress Urban, unfortunately they also get killed mistakenly for embrassing that look by real bangers all the time. Mistaken police harassment is the least of their worries.
ReplyDeleteUrban dress is now mainstream, not just here but everywhere.
Kids are dressing like their peers. That is what kids do. Trying to stop it is a losing battle.
Caring Neighbor,
ReplyDeleteYou might want to go back to the posts after numero 50 and delete any that mention it.
Of course then Ron will get less of a chance to play martyr.
Now if I said "lions meet martyrs" Ron would claim I actually wanted him to be eaten by a lion.
I wouldn't. The poor cat might die of food poisoning.
i have no interest in being a martyr. i just wish that "caring neighbor" will explain why she/he would threaten to delete my posts and not make that threat toward anyone else except dacutestmama, AS FAR AS I'VE SEEN. i'm sure other posts get deleted, but are my posts similar to those that are deleted?
ReplyDelete"caring neighbor" claims that she/he likes to explain her/his reasons for deleting posts, well i would like to know the reasons for threatening to delete a post that is in no way inappropriate other than challenging the dominant logic on this blog.
that's all, and i mentioned the other post that IP made about me to serve as a specific example of a post that is allowed to stay on the blog (at least for a few weeks), a post that IP weeks ago even said he thought would be deleted!
Ron, if you really want to have a discussion about this, email uptownupdate@hotmail.com. If you're just seeking an audience, well, I guess we won't hear from you.
ReplyDeleteIf you're dissatisfied with the way the administrators run this blog, either don't read it or hey, dock our pay. Oh, that's right, there is none.
We have lives outside of the purview of Uptown Update: families, jobs, community obligations, vacations, errands, stresses, Cubs games, and business travel. We try to read each and every comment. Occasionally something slips through the cracks.
If you've been offended for nearly a month now, you could have written us and alerted us about what you considered an outside-the-pale comment. Others have.
Again, I'm not willing to have a give you a spotlight by having a public debate with you. If you want answers, write the above address. If you want a forum, sorry, not playing.
"So Uptown Update posits that a store is selling apparal that some gang members happen to wear, and therefore the whole store must be condemned. Ignore the logic that Walgreens also sells this apparal, and that many kids that aren't in gangs wear this apparal, and that other convenience stores that don't sell this apparal have just as big a problem with gang loitering..." Uptownwalker
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, unloosen the knot in your underwear. Now breathe deeply a few times.
Read the title of the thread again. I'll make it easy for you and write it here myself, "Catering to their Clientele". It's not saying that this store selling T-shirts is the cause of all the gang activity there. I do see it catering to that element which is enough for me not to shop there.
If Walgreens was in a heavily gang-infested area and was selling these T-shirts, I wouldn't shop there. JJ Peppers is in a heavily concentrated gang area and if they were selling these T-shirts, I wouldn't shop there either.
No one is suggesting this store be condemned. It's simply making a point about who they are catering to. With a little luck, people will read this now very long thread and decide to boycott the store.
Sorry, but there's nothing I've seen there, that they don't sell at The Alley on N. Clark...and there are folks that hang out in front of there.
ReplyDeleteAnd I haven't seen so many people hanging out in front of there as I use to...and the patrols have DEFINATELY picked up, so I don't see all the hub bub.
::shrug:: Sometimes I think we're looking for problems that aren't real big problems. Maybe we should concentrate on the debaucle they call the Wilson Yard proj.
First of all, unloosen the knot in your underwear. Now breathe deeply a few times.
ReplyDeleteWhat a weird thing to say...are you hitting on me, holy moley? You're not a stalker, are you?
Read the title of the thread again. I'll make it easy for you and write it here myself, "Catering to their Clientele". It's not saying that this store selling T-shirts is the cause of all the gang activity there. I do see it catering to that element which is enough for me not to shop there.
I don't care where you shop, and I doubt you ever shopped at this store in the first place. Now, since you were so helpful in making things easy for me, and since you seem to be so strangly distracted by my underwear, let me boil this down for you nice and simple in return: You see this store catering to gangs. No evidence has been presented by you or Uptown Update to backup that claim. All you've given is your personal biased opinion, based on who knows what. You will go on thinking whatever you want to think, and I don't expect or want otherwise from you, but it's your opinion that is "unreasoned" here.
With a little luck, people will read this now very long thread and decide to boycott the store.
Actually, anyone reading this thread will see that over half the commenters on this thread agree that Uptown Update's rant against this store doesn't make any sense. Readers will see that, and then perhaps go buy some potato chips or a T-shirt at their local store.
Ron amuses me.
ReplyDeleteRon drank the kool aid. There is nothing you can ever say to him that will ever satisfy him. That is until you sell all your stuff, move into a Catholic Worker house, and go out and get arrested for picketing a military base.
Give him an answer and he will want another.
Here's an idea Ron. Start your own blog. There was one called Uptown Unity dot com that opened a few weeks back. Since closed. Run by some of your like minded compatriots I would guess.
Now watch out for those lions who eat martyrs. Oh and ask that his post be deleted because I suggested that lions might eat you.
I like reasoning.
ReplyDeleteOver 450 residents with less than a week's notice attended a forum about crime. They focused on gangs. Many of the attendees were from Sheridan Park. The 2 major hot spots in Sheridan Park are at Wilson/Magnolia and Sunnyside/Magnolia. Hey! Isn't that store located at Wilson/Magnolia? I believe it is!
I'm thinking there's a problem with gangs right where that store is, and that store happens to sell merchandise that caters to gangs.
Belmont/Clark does not cater to gangs. That's a whole other dynamic going on there. I don't have a problem with what they sell at that store. If gangs hung out there and terrorized and shot up the neighborhood there, I would have trouble with what's going on there. But they don't.
Now I have personally witnessed gangbangers running into this particular store and then waltz slowly out wearing a different T-shirt and they weren't carrying their old T-shirt with them. Personally, I find that odd. You obviously don't.
Uptown Update grates on your nerves, doesn't it? Well, it's here to stay. Start your own blog. Hey, if you're lucky you might get 1 or 2 hits a day and most of them will be from COURAJ types. Go for it.
Now reason back at me, uptownwalker.
I'm thinking there's a problem with gangs right where that store is, and that store happens to sell merchandise that caters to gangs.
ReplyDeleteYou're still pushing that little missing link in your logic. I'm sorry, I can't make it any more simple for you, so I'll just repeat: No connection has been established between the apparal the store is selling and gangs. Gangs members wear clothes. So what? They also eat potato chips. Are you against potato chips being sold in that store too?
Belmont/Clark does not cater to gangs. That's a whole other dynamic going on there. I don't have a problem with what they sell at that store. If gangs hung out there and terrorized and shot up the neighborhood there, I would have trouble with what's going on there. But they don't.
So basically, if gang members were seen hanging out in the area of that store, then you would automatically assume that whatever the store was selling catered to gangs....that's how your reasoning seems to work. Yet you're not even consistent in your reasoning. Three harmony is in the same parking lot as that convenience store, but I don't see you protesting Chinese food. Gang members sometimes eat Chinese food--I've seen it! Oh noes! Chinese restaurants cater to gangs! Boycott! Boycott!
Now I have personally witnessed gangbangers running into this particular store and then waltz slowly out wearing a different T-shirt and they weren't carrying their old T-shirt with them. Personally, I find that odd. You obviously don't.
I do find that odd...which is why I'm calling bullshit on your little story. It doesn't make sense for anyone to do that, whether the store caters to gangbangers or not. First of all, how do you know they're a gangbanger? Second, why would a gangbanger run into a store, buy a shirt, put it on over their other shirt (I assume that's what you're implying), then waltz slowly out? Please explain your "reasoning" here. Is it because you think they just committed a crime, and need a sudden disguise? If that were the case, don't you think they would have bought the shirt in advance, and put it on somewhere else? Don't you think they would try to avoid putting on their new disguise while they were in the store, to avoid being seen doing so? Don't you think they would have avoided a major street like Wilson if they thought they were being pursued? Perhaps you think they are buying a shirt because they are just about to commit a crime? But that makes no sense either... In that case, they would not need to run into the store. Also, they would still buy the shirt, then put it on later, for the same reason--to avoid witnesses.
Seriously, I usually take people at their word, but your story sounds totally contrived. If it weren't bullshit, you also would have mentioned your "eyewitness" account much earlier in the thread, I think (and yes, I know you mentioned it earlier today, because I came close to calling bullshit on it then, too). Or perhaps you have a reference number for the 911 call where you reported this highly suspicious behavior? You seem like a responsible upright citizen, so I'm sure you would have called about such odd behavior, right? Especially if it looked like they were fleeing pursuit...
I'll tell you what. Make a little movie next time you see this happen, and put it on YouTube or send it to Uptown Update. I will then profoundly apologize for believing that you're making this stuff up.
Uptown Update grates on your nerves, doesn't it?
Actually, no. Uptown Update serves a useful purpose, and I often enjoy reading it. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with Uptown Update every now and then. Perhaps, if you can't stand reading comments that disagree with your opinions, then you need to go start your own blog. That way, you can shut out any thoughts that disturb your pre-wrapped worldview.
Now reason back at me, uptownwalker.
For me to do that, first you will have to reason at me. I won't hold my breath.
Oh uptownwalker, you make it so easy.
ReplyDeleteWebster's Dictionery:
Cater: to provide or supply what is needed or gives pleasure, comfort, etc.
Cause: the reason or motive for some action: a cause for rejoicing.
You are confusing the meanings of the 2 words. Now read the title of the post: "Catering To Their Clientele"
I never said selling T-shirts causes gang activity. I like it that UU posted this to show us a store that caters merchandise that gangbangers wear in a neighborhood that is gang-infested. Now, would you let a kid of yours wear such clothing in a gang-infested area? If you would, make sure you have plenty of good health and burial insurance.
Your turn.
"I do find that odd...which is why I'm calling bullshit on your little story. It doesn't make sense for anyone to do that, whether the store caters to gangbangers or not. First of all, how do you know they're a gangbanger? Second, why would a gangbanger run into a store, buy a shirt, put it on over their other shirt (I assume that's what you're implying), then waltz slowly out? Please explain your "reasoning" here. Is it because you think they just committed a crime, and need a sudden disguise? If that were the case, don't you think they would have bought the shirt in advance, and put it on somewhere else? Don't you think they would try to avoid putting on their new disguise while they were in the store, to avoid being seen doing so? Don't you think they would have avoided a major street like Wilson if they thought they were being pursued? Perhaps you think they are buying a shirt because they are just about to commit a crime? But that makes no sense either... In that case, they would not need to run into the store. Also, they would still buy the shirt, then put it on later, for the same reason--to avoid witnesses."
ReplyDeleteApplauds to UptownWalker. Couldn't of said it better,.
I know what I saw. I never said they bought the T-shirt there, did I? You did. I'm saying they changed there. I didn't give a motive. You did. I just find the behavior odd and I believe there's more to it.
ReplyDeleteIrregardless, my point is I never said there's proof that the sale of T-shirts causes gang activity. Again, you did. I'm saying it caters to gangs, which is the whole point of the post.
Now wannabecutemomma, you go ahead and dress your child in urban wear because it's fashionable. I wouldn't want a child of mine wearing that crap in a gang-infested area myself. You do have good health insurance, right?
Thanks again UU!
dacutestbabiesmommadaddy..
ReplyDelete"Don't you think they would have avoided a major street like Wilson if they thought they were being pursued?"
Doesn't seem to stop them from shooting up Wilson now does it?
OMG... can this get a LITTLE more out of hand!? Are personal attacks "wannabecutest" necessary? Why don't you all just agree to disagree, for crying out loud. Sheesh!
ReplyDeleteTwo t-shirts and baggy black jeans on a 90F day with humidity hovering at 90% just seems out of place.
ReplyDeleteIt may just be economics though.
When I see people concealing and carrying in leotards and spandex I'll start worrying more about other forms of apparel.
Annie, that "playing victim" tactic is getting old. Try something more creative when there's no come back.
ReplyDeleteThere was one called Uptown Unity dot com that opened a few weeks back. Since closed. Run by some of your like minded compatriots I would guess.
ReplyDeleteOh, it closed already? Huh.
The person who started it registered the address on whois.com as 920 W Wilson (home of JPUSA, Friendly Towers, Cornerstone, etc., etc.)
Knowing its provenance, I never bothered to read it. Too late now, apparently.
TSN,
ReplyDeleteGoogle "cache" gives an idea who was the beatific force behind the now defunct "Uptown Unity". I guess Jon found that he wasn't getting many hits or perhaps actually having to take the time to actually work at the site bothered him. Perhaps he could have a nice concert somewhere and lure some screwed up 18 year olds to run the site for him. That's in between working at the various other Jesus People enterprises.
Playing victim! LOL! Do you always "phish" here, holey?
ReplyDeleteI don't "play" anything, except with my 5 y.o. son... who was 45 secs away from the shooting that took place at Leland & Malden not that long ago. So no, dear, I don't "play" anything.
But this diversion with the freakin phone store that carries skull tshirts and belts... that kids in the hood who may or MAY NOT be gang bangers, go in and buy...seems a LOT less important than simply getting RID of gang bangers... and preventing the travesity called Wilson Yard Proj. Not this petty crap you keep perpetuating.
You have kids and you call stores that cater to gangs as "petty crap". Interesting.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI know what I saw. I never said they bought the T-shirt there, did I? You did. I'm saying they changed there. I didn't give a motive. You did. I just find the behavior odd and I believe there's more to it.
ReplyDeleteYou're really dancing now, holy moley. You imply something, and then deny meaning anything by it. You won't explain the logic behind your opinion, and then you claim you didn't mean anything by it. I guess there's really nothing to discuss here, is there? You don't even know what you're trying to say.
Irregardless, my point is I never said there's proof that the sale of T-shirts causes gang activity. Again, you did. I'm saying it caters to gangs, which is the whole point of the post.
I didn't say there's proof either. I said there's NO proof. You said the store caters to gangs by selling T-shirts, and I said they also do so by selling potato chips. In other words, the store is not carrying merchandise with the specific intention of selling it to gangs. If a gang member chooses to come into their store to buy potato chips, there's really not much the store can do about it. The same goes for the apparal, because the store is not carrying the apparal with the intent to sell it to gangs. I'm glad we can agree on that. All this time, I thought you had something against this store.
Since apparently we agree, I guess we're done here. Or did you have some sort of conviction you wanted to stand behind?
Analogies are always the worst form of argument. We're not talking about potato chips. We're talking about t-shirts that glorify gangbanging. You can't see it. I understand that. However, it's rather obvious that the person who runs UU sees it.
ReplyDeleteYou were the one screaming proof. I never did. I said "catered". Huge difference. You see nothing odd about gangbangers running into stores to switch their shirts. I have no problem with the way you see it. I don't. I've learned to trust my instincts.
Kinda gets to you that UU does this kind of posting, doesn't it.
holy moley said...
ReplyDeleteBelmont/Clark does not cater to gangs. That's a whole other dynamic going on there. I don't have a problem with what they sell at that store. If gangs hung out there and terrorized and shot up the neighborhood there, I would have trouble with what's going on there. But they don't.
Then who are they catering to by selling the same type of merchandise? What is that "whole other dynamic"?
Seems to me if you're opposed to the stuff because it "glorifies gangbanging," you'd oppose it regardless of where it's being sold, and regardless of who's buying it.
Analogies are always the worst form of argument.
ReplyDeleteAn analogy is a simple form of argument, true, because more complex ones seem to go over your head. Regardless of how simple the form of argument, it's still a valid form--unlike the logical fallacy you were relying on before. Even that is better than just repeating an unfounded bias, which is all you're doing now.
By the way, I'm not actually using an analogy here, I'm using an identity. There really is no difference in this situation between potato chips and the apparal they're selling. They're both merchandise that does not cater to gangs.
We're talking about t-shirts that glorify gangbanging.
No, we're not. What we're talking about is your unfounded opinion that these shirts glorify gangbanging.
However, it's rather obvious that the person who runs UU sees it.
It's rather obvious that Uptown Update shares your unfounded opinion, and it's also rather obvious that many others think it's bullshit.
You were the one screaming proof. I never did.
You don't have to prove a thing. If you don't have anything to back it up with, however, then you are admitting your opinion is totally unfounded. Take your pick.
I said "catered". Huge difference.
I said this store "caters" to gangs with the apparal they sell in the same way it "caters" to gangs by selling potato chips. No difference. Nice continued backpedaling, though.
You see nothing odd about gangbangers running into stores to switch their shirts.
Your story itself is what I find odd, because it makes no sense. I simply don't believe you. Not much more to say about that.
Kinda gets to you that UU does this kind of posting, doesn't it.
I find this particular post offensive in how irresponsible and misguided it is, but many other posts are fine. I already answered that question for you, by the way, in case your memory is failing.
Actually, for all I know you could be Uptown Update, defending him as a surrogate. I know for a fact that at least one--if not all--of the UU posters uses multiple identities (not that there's anything wrong with that). Not saying this is true, it's just some food for thought. It would explain how you both share the same unfounded opinion.
Does anyone remember who it was that claimed to have seen the "Uptown Update is Stupid" T-shirt?
ReplyDeletePS--I seriously cannot get over how many posts are on this thread---and I only account for 2 plus this one. wowza
""Does anyone remember who it was that claimed to have seen the "Uptown Update is Stupid" T-shirt?"""
ReplyDeleteChip diggity Douglas. Why maam do you ask?
Well, it was later denied but nothing came of it. I totally understand how t-shirts can be such a hot button issue (had to do it!!!) but I thought it was odd that the original poster never came back with their version of the story. You said you saw it, right?
ReplyDeleteSaw it at Starbucks..saw her run out when they asked her what the shirt was about.
ReplyDeleteTrue story.
Lotsa fun t shirts out there.
ReplyDeleteLast week I saw a black t shirt on the EL something to the effect of
"Community Watch: Against Police Brutality".
Surprisingly the young woman wearing the t-shirt was loud and obnoxious.
Probably an unhappy Hillary Clinton supporter. PUMA. Party Unity My Ass.
I wish I had been wearing a T shirt saying "Community Watch: Against Obnoxious Idiots on the EL"
Kenny, Belmont/Clark does not have a high number of gang-related arrests. If they did, I wouldn’t be supportive of the sale of any type of T-shirt that would cater to gangbangers. I’ll say it again, and perhaps read what I write aloud so it can sink in better. I don’t agree with the sale of T-shirts that cater to gangbangers if the store is located in a gang-infested area. My nephew out in the suburbs loves to wear this type of stuff. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest. It also doesn’t bother his parents. If they lived in a gang-infested area, his parents would not allow him to wear it. That’s because his parents would fear for his life if he wore this type of shirt in a gang-infested area.
ReplyDeleteMy opinion that these T-shirts cater to the gangbangers is simply my opinion. (It also happens to be the opinion of UU as well and I realize that must really grate on your nerves.) I don’t need proof to have an opinion. Now uptownwalker, if you can use logic that appeals to a higher authority (a well known expert in gang-related criminal activity who has done some reliable and valid research that shows these types of T-shirts don’t cater to gangbangers), then I would be open to changing my opinion. Until then, your opinion is no better than my opinion.
I guess this means you won’t join me in boycotting this store. No matter. There are plenty of people who don’t care for this store besides me.
I’ll say it again, and perhaps read what I write aloud so it can sink in better. I don’t agree with the sale of T-shirts that cater to gangbangers if the store is located in a gang-infested area.
ReplyDeleteTry your own technique, and read what I write aloud: the sale of these T-shirts DO NOT cater to gangbangers.
My nephew out in the suburbs loves to wear this type of stuff. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
You do realize that Chicago gang activity has been spreading into the suburbs for years now, don't you?
My opinion that these T-shirts cater to the gangbangers is simply my opinion... I don’t need proof to have an opinion.
Exactly as I said in my last comment. You can have any opinion you want to have (opinions are like arseholes, as they say), but unless you provide some facts to back it up, it's totally unfounded.
Now uptownwalker, if you can use logic that appeals to a higher authority ... then I would be open to changing my opinion.
I don't care if you change your opinion, I just wanted to establish that it's completely unfounded. Thanks for acknowledging that.
Until then, your opinion is no better than my opinion.
Well, except that I can back my opinion up with some evidence. For example, that this very same store has cooperated with the community before to address the loitering issue, that the loitering and gang activity was present before the store ever sold this apparal, that this apparal is mainstream (i.e., does not cater to gangs any more than potato chips), etc. There is room for argument, certainly, but at least my opinion is based on something.
I guess this means you won’t join me in boycotting this store. No matter. There are plenty of people who don’t care for this store besides me.
Anyone who boycotts this store will be doing so because they share the same unfounded opinions that you do. That will essentially be a bunch of people that never shopped there in the first place. I don't expect the store will lose a single customer as a result. Meanwhile, I'll stop in and buy a T-shirt in your honor.
uptownwalker, your opinion is based on a very poor argument and that's why is continues to be easy to debate. Whether this store sold these T-shirts before or during a gang problem, its T-shirts still cater to gangs. I would guess the neighborhood parents would be relieved if the store stopped this practice. I can't imagine most teachers being thrilled with these shirts either.
ReplyDeleteI don’t mind you having your opinion. I’m not sure why you mind me having mine. Good luck with your new T-shirt. Before you wear it, practice taking it off quickly. You will need to be really fast when gunfire starts.
As far as your assumption that people who are against the sale of this material never shopped there, your opinion is not based on fact (as you believe must be the basis for all opinions.)
uptownwalker, your opinion is based on a very poor argument and that's why is continues to be easy to debate.
ReplyDeleteYou haven't debated anything. You just keep repeating the same unfounded opinion.
Whether this store sold these T-shirts before or during a gang problem, its T-shirts still cater to gangs.
Yet it's evidence that the store is willing to work to reduce the loitering problem, rather than trying to cater to gangs. Evidence to support your opinion? None.
I don’t mind you having your opinion. I’m not sure why you mind me having mine.
Didn't I say in my last couple of comments that you have every right to your opinion? That's right, I did! You're welcome to have any opinion you want, but if you want to argue that your opinion has any basis in reality, then you'll have to put up or shut up.
Good luck with your new T-shirt. Before you wear it, practice taking it off quickly. You will need to be really fast when gunfire starts.
Now that's just an ignorant thing to say. No further comment.
As far as your assumption that people who are against the sale of this material never shopped there, your opinion is not based on fact (as you believe must be the basis for all opinions.)
Problems with reading comprehension? I never said that opinions have to be based on fact (if you want to go around ranting that the world is flat, be my guest). What I said was that, until you have some facts to support your opinion, it's totally unfounded. Thus, your opinion that these T-shirts cater to the gangs means about as much in a debate as someone who thinks babies are delivered by storks.
Uptownwalker, you have no right to say that the people who don't like the T-shirts have not shopped there! How dare you make such a claim. Prove it. If you're going to have such a silly belief, it must be based on fact. If you can't do that, then go ahead and believe the world is flat. (I know it's silly to say the above, but it's using your reasoning.)
ReplyDeleteWith regards to evidence to support my belief that this store caters to gangbangers, you simply have to look at what gangbangers wear in this gang-infested neighborhood and look at what the store sells. VOILA! There's your evidence. You keep bringing up potato chips, but gangbangers don't wear potato chips. They wear those shirts.
You think it's ignorant to tell you to practice taking off a shirt that caters to gangbangers when gun fire happens. I think it's more ignorant to wear such a shirt in this gang-infested area. But go ahead and start wearing your new T-shirt around.
Uptownwalker, you have no right to say that the people who don't like the T-shirts have not shopped there! How dare you make such a claim. Prove it. If you're going to have such a silly belief, it must be based on fact. If you can't do that, then go ahead and believe the world is flat. (I know it's silly to say the above, but it's using your reasoning.)
ReplyDeleteYou're right, that is a totally unfounded opinion of mine--I never said otherwise. It's totally unfounded, like your opinion that the apparal the store is selling caters to gangs. It's totally unfounded, like your opinion that anyone (other than yourself, perhaps) is going to boycott this store. The difference here (not that you'll be able to grasp it) it that I'm not trying to use my opinion as the basis for a debate.
With regards to evidence to support my belief that this store caters to gangbangers, you simply have to look at what gangbangers wear in this gang-infested neighborhood and look at what the store sells. VOILA! There's your evidence. You keep bringing up potato chips, but gangbangers don't wear potato chips. They wear those shirts.
When you take into account that this style of clothing is mainstream now, and that many kids that aren't in gangs and never will be wear it, your "evidence" falls apart and reveals the logical fallacy that you keep making. Let me try:
Look around the neighborhood, and you'll see that gangbangers eat potato chips. VOILA! Any store that sells potato chips caters to gangs! See how easy that was? See how ridiculous that line of "reasoning" is? No, I doubt you see it...but if anyone is still reading this thread they surely will.
You think it's ignorant to tell you to practice taking off a shirt that caters to gangbangers when gun fire happens.
Yes, it was a totally ignorant thing to say, but I'm not surprised you said it. It just means that it's grating on your nerves that I won't let you get away with trying to pass off your totally unfounded opinion as if it were fact.
When you take into account that this style of clothing is mainstream now, and that many kids that aren't in gangs and never will be wear it, your "evidence" falls apart and reveals the logical fallacy that you keep making. Let me try: Look around the neighborhood, and you'll see that gangbangers eat potato chips. VOILA! Any store that sells potato chips caters to gangs! See how easy that was? See how ridiculous that line of "reasoning" is? No, I doubt you see it...but if anyone is still reading this thread they surely will.
ReplyDeleteYou have just clearly demonstrated in your argument a flaw of “questionable similarities.” Smoke Dreams sells bongs and comic books. Using your flawed logic, nothing is wrong with selling bongs in an area with high drug activity because they also sell comic books and drug users like to read comics.
Yes, those shirts have become mainstream. I never questioned that and brought up my nephew in the burbs wearing this type of shirt. However, gang activity is not mainstream. Gang activity occurs directly outside this store. That’s the difference. It’s one thing to wear these types of T-shirt in suburbia. It’s quite another to wear them in a gang-infested area where you are more prone to getting shot. The highest cause of death of AA youth in urban areas is violence. Urban wear isn’t cute anymore when children get killed. That’s where your logic fails you every single time.
The best reasoning is appealing to a higher authority. For that, I appeal to Bill Cosby, who has a PhD in Education and Harvard Medical Professor Dr. Alvin Poussaint. Both are very outspoken about their beliefs that AA teenagers should not be wearing this type of clothing.
I won't let you get away with trying to pass off your totally unfounded opinion as if it were fact.
Again, and read this very slowly, I NEVER SAID MY OPINION WAS FACT. YOU DID. However, my opinion is well grounded in the advice given by Drs. Cosby and Poussaint.
Still, there is a way you could trump my appeal to a higher authority. Show me reliable and valid research that indicates there is no correlation that these types of T-shirts are typically not purchased by gangbangers if the store happens to be in a gang-infested area. If you could, I'm all ears. Until then, my opinion is mine and your opinion is yours. The only difference is that my use of 2 authority figures gives me an advantage over your argument of questionable similarities.
You have just clearly demonstrated in your argument a flaw of “questionable similarities.” Smoke Dreams sells bongs and comic books. Using your flawed logic, nothing is wrong with selling bongs in an area with high drug activity because they also sell comic books and drug users like to read comics.
ReplyDeleteActually, you're the one making the flaw of questionable similarities. There is a direct connection between the purchase of a bong and drug use, there is no direct connection between the purchase of urban apparel and gang membership--no stronger a connection than that between the purchase of potato chips and gang membership.
However, gang activity is not mainstream. Gang activity occurs directly outside this store. That’s the difference.
A shooting occurred this morning directly outside of J.J.Peppers, a store that doesn't sell urban wear--BUT THEY DO SELL POTATO CHIPS!!! Seriously, until you can provide evidence that the purchase of urban apparel is related to gang activity, your argument remains totally baseless.
Urban wear isn’t cute anymore when children get killed. That’s where your logic fails you every single time.
Show me evidence (a link perhaps) of children getting killed because they are wearing urban wear, and perhaps we can discuss this further. I can't find any, therefore we're back into unfounded opinion territory.
The best reasoning is appealing to a higher authority. For that, I appeal to Bill Cosby, who has a PhD in Education and Harvard Medical Professor Dr. Alvin Poussaint. Both are very outspoken about their beliefs that AA teenagers should not be wearing this type of clothing.
Nice try (although a link to a source would be much better). This may be your first attempt at backing up your unfounded opinion, but you're still making a logical fallacy. You see, from what I can find (since you didn't link to the source), your "higher authorities" had this to say about urban apparel:
I refuse to accept the African American sterotype as my reality. Rapper and thug life is a nightmare for African Americans. The urban wear is the money suit of the sterotype...For example, the urban wear dresses our African Men as little boys.
The true attire of the African American population is not urban wear. Men help us change the sterotype. We do not want our men viewed as little boys. We do not want our women and girls view as ladies of the night. We can change this with personal responsibility.
Yes, they are opposed to urban apparel, at least when worn by African Americans, because it perpetuates stereotypes (like the one you foster). They are NOT opposed to urban apparel because they see a connection between wearing the apparel and being in a gang, they are opposed to it because people like you believe the stereotypes when you see African Americans wearing it.
I NEVER SAID MY OPINION WAS FACT. YOU DID.
No, but you're trying to carry on this debate, arguing that you're right, without providing any evidence to back up your unfounded opinion. You're treating your opinion as factual, when it's not. In contrast, my unfounded opinion (that nobody who will boycott the store ever shopped there in the first place) is something that I just threw out there--I admit it's unfounded and I'm not continuing a debate on the premise that it's true.
However, my opinion is well grounded in the advice given by Drs. Cosby and Poussaint.
No, they don't support your opinion at all, as I pointed out above. If your source says otherwise, please provide a link.
Still, there is a way you could trump my appeal to a higher authority.
Again, your appeal to a higher authority appears to be a non-starter.
Show me reliable and valid research that indicates there is no correlation that these types of T-shirts are typically not purchased by gangbangers if the store happens to be in a gang-infested area.
You want me to prove that something doesn't exist? No, I won't waste a minute doing that. Why? Because my whole argument is that your opinion is unfounded, which is proven automatically by your inability to provide evidence that backs it up. If you provide this evidence, I'll rebut it if I can, but until then the burden of proof is on you. Even so, I did still provide some evidence, such as the CrimeWatch report, that casts doubts on the truth of your opinion.
Until then, my opinion is mine and your opinion is yours. The only difference is that my use of 2 authority figures gives me an advantage over your argument of questionable similarities.
Well, I've already rebutted this, but I'll summarize. Your two "authority figures" were taken out of context (well, not really, because you couldn't actually be bothered to quote them or link to them in the first place), and your theory of "questionable similarities" was based on another logical fallacy.
So uptownwalker, it basically sounds to me that you believe gangbangers wear no type of clothing that distinguishes them at all from other people? So tell me, why is it that some schools have strict rules about kids wearing this "urban wear" look? Is it because these mean teachers don’t like the kids’ style of clothing? That seems a little odd to me.
ReplyDeleteI will say this however, if the victim today was a gangbanger, he was probably wearing clothing that clued the shooter that this person was another rival gangbanger. (You may want to delay wearing your new “urban wear” T-shirt for a little longer and wear a UU shirt instead.)
I really don't need proof to have my opinions, but proof enough for me is what I see a gangbanger wear when the gangbanger is gangbanging. And God help the parent in this gang-infested neighborhood whose child thinks gang clothing is cool.
So uptownwalker, it basically sounds to me that you believe gangbangers wear no type of clothing that distinguishes them at all from other people?
ReplyDeleteThey might wear clothing that distinguishes them from you, but otherwise not so much. I'm sure that many of the kids you see that you assume are gangbangers aren't gangbangers at all.
So tell me, why is it that some schools have strict rules about kids wearing this "urban wear" look?
You know what? I'm sick of doing your work for you. If you want to discuss this, at least do a simple Google search, and then provide a link about a school that has this rule. How about even providing the name of such a school? Anything? Bueller?
I will say this however, if the victim today was a gangbanger, he was probably wearing clothing that clued the shooter that this person was another rival gangbanger.
More unfounded bullcrap. Perhaps you should do some investigative reporting on the shooting, and then get back to me with some facts? Then we can discuss this.
I really don't need proof to have my opinions, but proof enough for me is what I see a gangbanger wear when the gangbanger is gangbanging.
No, you don't need proof to pull biased and unfounded opinions out of your butt all day long. It's great that you're able to "prove" them to yourself, although I imagine you're an easy sell.
It’s clear to me now that you see very little difference from the way gangbangers act and dress and other kids in the neighborhood. I’m not surprised. A drug deal could happen right in front of you and you would think they are just loaning one another some lunch money.
ReplyDeleteIt’s also sounding like when gangbangers choose to shoot someone, it’s just a random act because obviously, they have no way of identifying whether or not the intended victim is a rival gangbanger. However at CAPS meetings (and I have my own hunch about your involvement with CAPS) the cause of the violence is gangs fighting rival gangs. With your “reasoning”, gangs have no clue who they are shooting at because there’s little difference between the way they dress and the way non-gangbangers dress.
That said, I take delight that after this last shooting, more of us will boycott this store. It won’t be long before it goes out of business. If you have any money infested in this store, get out fast.
It’s clear to me now that you see very little difference from the way gangbangers act and dress and other kids in the neighborhood.
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference in how they act, but that is not what we're discussing. In most cases there is little difference in how they dress.
I’m not surprised. A drug deal could happen right in front of you and you would think they are just loaning one another some lunch money.
I've called 911 a number of times when I've seen drug deals taking place. And guess what? Many of the perpetrators weren't even wearing "urban wear". But I wouldn't be surprised if you saw one kid loaning another lunch money, and incorrectly accused them of dealing drugs.
It’s also sounding like when gangbangers choose to shoot someone, it’s just a random act because obviously, they have no way of identifying whether or not the intended victim is a rival gangbanger.
Incorrect again. They use hand signs, tags, and (strangely enough) they can sometimes tell one another apart by looking at faces! They may even wear something that identifies them as belonging to a certain gang--but nothing sold in that convenience store contains any markings that would allow one gang to identify another. It's generic urban wear, useless for identification.
However at CAPS meetings (and I have my own hunch about your involvement with CAPS)
Yeah, I have a heap of hunches about you, too. Whatever.
the cause of the violence is gangs fighting rival gangs. With your “reasoning”, gangs have no clue who they are shooting at because there’s little difference between the way they dress and the way non-gangbangers dress.
Actually, that's your reasoning, and we already know you're prone to logical fallacies. It's naive to think that they tell each other apart from clothing alone. Perhaps they see someone not in their gang dealing drugs on the street? Ever think that may be a clue? You don't know what you're talking about. Go fish.
It won’t be long before it goes out of business.
Again, whatever. I guess when we see the "Out Of Business" sign on the storefront next week we'll know you're right, huh? I won't hold my breath.
It's naive to think that they tell each other apart from clothing alone. Perhaps they see someone not in their gang dealing drugs on the street? Ever think that may be a clue? You don't know what you're talking about. Go fish.
ReplyDeleteAgain, you continue to say things I never said. That's a bad habit of yours. I never said clothing alone is the way to distinguish gangbangers. However, dress is one distinguishable way of identifying a gangbanger, and the merchandise in this store is what I see some of the gangbangers wearing.
I can't predict how long it will take for a boycott to work to close down this store, but a celebration it will be! We'll have to post it on UU when it happens! Don't forget to get your UU T-shirt. Perhaps you can wear it to your next CAPS meeting.
Again, you continue to say things I never said. That's a bad habit of yours. I never said clothing alone is the way to distinguish gangbangers.
ReplyDeleteAnd I never claimed there was no way to distinguish gangbangers from each other, but you had no reservations about putting those words in my mouth. Your worst habit, aside from believing in things with no basis of proof, is to talk in complete circles and to backtrack on everything you said.
However, dress is one distinguishable way of identifying a gangbanger, and the merchandise in this store is what I see some of the gangbangers wearing.
And many non-gangbangers wear it too, because it's generic urban wear. Just because a gangbanger buys something a store sells does not mean the store caters to gangs. And now we're back to the start of circle again...
I can't predict how long it will take for a boycott to work to close down this store
Yeah, and in 30 years, when the owner of this store finally retires, you'll be telling all your grandchildren how you and Uptown Update (if you're not one and the same) drove him out of town single-handedly with your fierceful boycott.
This post all started because it was noted by UU that this store "caters" to their clientele and it showed prominent displays of merchandise that many of us have observed some gangbangers wear.
ReplyDeleteNow listen closely:
1. Not all gangbangers wear this type of clothing (but I have witnessed some that do, and so did UU. Otherwise, they wouldn't have made the post.)
2. It's one thing to wear this in the burbs, and quite another to wear this in a gang-infested area (a point you conveniently ignore.)
3. Yes, gangbangers hang out in places like JJ Peppers. No claim was ever made that the wearing of these T-shirts cause more crime, despite your whining that says some of us are making that claim.
4. This urban wear glorifies a gangbanger lifestyle, and I have no problem with this type of merchandise glorifying this where gangbanging is not destroying a community. I do have a problem when they do this in areas where there has been a huge problem with gangbanging.
5. Other non-gangbangers also buy these T-shirts, and although it's cute and a fashion statement in safer neighborhoods, it's not so cute here anymore. Children fascinated by gangs in this neighborhood suffer for it. They don't suffer for it in the burbs.
So you are welcome to whine all you want about it and say my opinion is not informed. A young teenager got killed yesterday and people who loved this guy are mourning. I hope out of respect for the family, no one wears one of these gd T-shirts to the funeral. This family needs no more reminders about how horrible gangs can be. "Urban wear" in Uptown is no longer cute.
See you at CAPS so that we can all work on the problems of gangs. I won't be wearing any urban wear but perhaps a UU T-shirt instead.
Let's try this again, shall we Uptown Update?
ReplyDeleteholy moley,
If you're just going to keep talking in circles, repeating the same unfounded opinions without providing any new insight or evidence to back them up, and backpedaling on things you have said or implied, then I think we're truly done here.
This urban wear glorifies a gangbanger lifestyle, and I have no problem with this type of merchandise glorifying this where gangbanging is not destroying a community. I do have a problem when they do this in areas where there has been a huge problem with gangbanging.
The circle begins again, and logical fallacies abound. The apparel sold by the convenience store does NOT glorify the gangbanger lifestyle. If it did I would be against it, but it's generic urban wear. If I wanted to I could also annoyingly parse your exact words to point out that "glorify" does not mean the same thing as "caters", but since neither word describes what the store is doing I'll just leave it at that.
So you are welcome to whine all you want about it and say my opinion is not informed.
Your opinion is not informed, as you admitted in your previous comments. It is biased and unfounded. I'm glad we still agree 100% on that point.
I continue to fully support what UU did when they posted these photos of T-shirts and other paraphernalia in this store. My mistake was taking you up on your belief that the burden of proof lies with UU posting this. That’s not following the rules of argument. Since you are the one who disagrees with UU’s posting, the burden of proof lies with you to prove otherwise.
ReplyDeleteThis is not about proving that the selling of these T-shirts cause crime. That’s not being disputed.
This is not about proving that non-gangbangers also wear this type of clothing and refer to it as “urban wear.” That’s not being disputed.
This is not about proving everyone likes potato chips. That’s not being disputed.
This is all about paraphernalia that caters to some who gangbang in this neighborhood that has been devastated by gang violence. If you can prove that gangbangers never buy this crap, go for it. Forewarning though, your potato chip argument just isn’t working. Fritos won’t work either. You may want to stay away from comparisons which end up being a very sloppy form of argument and it seldom works, if ever. It’s certainly not working here. If you can do all this without an ad hominine attack, maybe it won’t get deleted. You're also not doing a good job of interpreting what I say. Just stick to proving your point.
Hmmm. All this talk of potato chips is making me hungry.
ReplyDelete