A reader writes: "I came across this last night while walking in the 'hood, and immediately called 311. Happily, the 311 operator told me that it had already been reported and was in the queue to be removed."
I take it this recurring quote was uttered at some point by our esteemed and learned alderman. Having been blissfully ignorant myself in Buena Park these past few years, could someone fill me in?
Obviously there are at the very least, members here, who like to vandalize property and make us pay for their ignorance. Booooo!
Luckily, residents are taking a stand and having these tags quickly removed. Hopefully they will see this isn't a territory they can claim.
Note: preventing youths from joining gangs is the best policy, and maybe we should look into supporting those programs and the similar ones that help counsel and lead young men (and women) out of gang culture and into the mainstream. Like they said at the rally, it really takes a village (go HR-C!)
Perhaps like some others in the neighborhood, our alderman can't tell and doesn't care about the difference between hip-hop art and a gangbanger marking his territory like a dog pissing on a fire hydrant. This is gang tagging.
Contrast it with the piece on the building just west of the southbound red line heading toward DePaul, yeah that one with the gal and her, um, detailed naked breasts. Amazing and beautiful work. Its been there for months, I'm beginning to wonder if the building owner might just be thinking it would be a shame to paint over it.
But I'm certain the morality police (think of the poor children!) will eventually win, and I'll be left with the cheesy four-foot casino dice painted in gloss enamel on the building before the Belmont stop, which of course, because permission was given and money exchaged, is called "advertising."
If the owner of the building with busty lady invited the painting, appreciates the painting, or generally just doesn't care...fine. If he/she didn't want it, doesn't like it, doesn't want it but can't afford the hardship of a remedy...the arrogant vandal should be arrested and forced to make reparations.
That would be the Latin Kings, the PStones and the Conservative Vice Lords. Apparently there is a truce right now between the CVL and the PStones. These signs are clearly Latin Kings(the five point crown, or sometimes the three point crown, I'm not sure of the significance of the difference).
I believ the other two are disrespecting signs towards the CVL, but don't hold me to that.
as violent as mainstream U.S. culture is, i don't think encouraging kids to enter the "mainstream" is a great idea, unless we adults and kids change what the "mainstream" is.
maybe THEY have a lot to teach US about our society and how it should be changed.
Ron, you are a dumbass. Mainstream means what most kids do. Most kids go to school then when they leave school, they get a job that is legal and live their lives without harming other people. The kids that are in a gang don't do this. If you want to learn what gang kids can teach us, here are some ideas:
1. How to sell a dime bag. 2. How to set up a neighborhood drug operation. 3. How to live in a shit hole and promote the shit hole lifestyle by pissing outdoors and throwing their garbage on the ground. 4. How to pull off the jacket in any kind of weather look. 5. How to pull off the white t-shirt in any kind of weather look. 6. How to drop out/skip school and still make enough money to feed you, your grandma, your baby and your baby momma. and finally 7. How to hang on the street corner in any kind of weather even at 11 pm at night when its 10 below zero outside.
Ron ... Go learn all you can from these kids and get back to us.
Ron, I assume from what you write, that you work with these kids in some capacity. I also assume from your use of punctuation and writing, that you are educated. Your comment obviously hit a nerve with some of the people on this blog, which I can understand; however, in the interest of fairness, can you please explain what exactly you have learned from the kids your are referring to? I ask this in honesty as it sure seems to me that they have a lot to learn from educated, socially-conscious individuals such as yourself and many of the people who post on this site, even if the ways of going about being socially conscious differ.
"Most kids go to school then when they leave school, they get a job that is legal and live their lives without harming other people."
I may be wrong, but I took Ron's post to be a short summary of "What's the matter with Capitalism". If you don't want kids to choose a certain path, what are you doing to deter them?
I certainly don't see the use in excusing criminal acts of people.
YOu comment was very ignorant and prejudice as well!!! HOw about you get the He** off your horse and open your eyes!!! And I"m sure if there weren't people like you supporting the drug trade, these nickel and dime drug dealers that you are talking about wouldn't be able to keep their business flowing. HOwever, their highest drug sales of the day usually come from the "wealthly," "educated", citizens of uptown!!!
Yes I was making a joke but the facts of the joke ring true for me and a lot of families in Uptown that want to make this a better place and by better place I mean free of gangs/drugs, random shootings, trash all over the streets, homeless people urinating in public in open view of our children, etc.
You claim I'm prejudiced well I am against gang members/drug dealers. I think you'll find most people on this blog are prejudiced against gang members/drug dealers. And FYI, I have had a family member ruin almost 8 years of his life using drugs so don't think I condone selling or using in any manner. The only people that have any real benefit from the drug trade are the dealers. Everyone else just gets hurt.
It's not just a matter of illegal drug per se, but also the hypocrisy that permeates the drug trade. Hoe many of those "lower class" Uptown drug dealers count "yuppie" condo owners and/or middle-class suburban kids attending shows at the Riviera among their clientele? It's a story as old as "The Man with the Golden Arm" - illegal drugs are "bad" for the poor people while those in the upper strata who benefit from the trade in one way or the other get a pass.
I don't know about anyone else but I don't care who participates in the drug trade either as a buyer or a seller. It is illegal and the effects are permeating our community in the most negative of ways. I am "educated" and somewhat "wealthy" and I say that all should be punished until this scourge stops. killing. people.
And I"m sure if there weren't people like you supporting the drug trade, these nickel and dime drug dealers that you are talking about wouldn't be able to keep their business flowing.
Hey, we don't allow flaming other posters here. And I really can't believe you accused someone you don't know of being a drug buyer and user, based on one post.
Please show some courtesy to your fellow posters in the future. We appreciate it. And while it's really easy to delete posts, it's something we'd rather not have to do.
Does anyone here think that cops aren't busting, shall we say "Uptown Citizens on high horses"? If what dacutestmama says is true, then they are probably the adults most likely to be carrying sizeable amounts because the big dealers make it so that they don't ever have anything on them. If what dacutestmama says is true, why not make this a harder place to buy (and cause trouble for people Helen doesn't like)?
Just a reminder, but the very same areas where residents 'allegedly' identify gang members and drug dealers(4500 N Magnolia, 4700 N Malden) are the very same areas that were rolled up in 1999 by officers from HUD in cooperation with local beat 2311 police officers.
That was almost 10 years ago.
If you don't keep at it, the same exact problems will return.
wow. my post created some discussion, i don't have a bunch of time to respond right now but i must say, "caring neighbor" your comment directed to "dacutestmama" that read "Please show some courtesy to your fellow posters in the future. We appreciate it. And while it's really easy to delete posts, it's something we'd rather not have to do." seems ironic in that you did not direct a similar comment to "cowboy" for referring to me as a "dumbass". it really doesn't bother me much that he wrote that other than that it does not help foster real discussion but in the interest of being objective, i'd be interested as to why you didn't take issue with "cowboy's" remark but you did with "dacutestmama's"? please respond...
Well, I guess I am prejudiced against gang bangers. I prefer not getting shot for absolutely no reason other than I happened to be outside walking my dog.
I'll respond (even though your request isn't directed towards me). There is a difference between an observation and an accusation. Granted, civil discourse should preclude such adjectives as "dumbass". Like cowboy, I observed that you posted a comment completely devoid of inteligent thought. dacutestmama, however, accused cowboy and people like him of being a drug user. In fact, it is my understanding the drug trade in Uptown is predominantly from well outside the neighborhood.
"And FYI, I have had a family member ruin almost 8 years of his life using drugs so don't think I condone selling or using in any manner. The only people that have any real benefit from the drug trade are the dealers. Everyone else just gets hurt."
i'm sorry that someone in your family has struggled with drug abuse, i know people who have the same struggles. I also know many people who struggle with alcohol abuse as i'm sure you do too. Does your position towards drugs other than alcohol translate over to alcohol as well? do you not condone selling or using alcohol in any manner as well? if not, why? simply because it's legal, even though the consequences of alcohol use could arguably be the worst of any drug, other than cigarettes?
also, i think there are some rather large banks and politicians and cops and government entities and the like benefiting from the drug trade, not just dealers. if anything the dealers are on the lower end of those who benefit.
one of my points is that just because something is legal, it does not mean it's a good thing for people to do. The whole economic system we have is generally a hustle to make money and obtain material things. Some people take part in this hustle in a legal way (those who have access to the channels of "success" --good schools, parents with connections,etc generally go this route), others take part in an extralegal or illegal way. i personally try to remove myself as much as i can from this hustle because i think it is inherently violent and i think the world could use a whole new way of living and relating to one another. i wouldn't feel right directing young people in either direction, the legal hustle or the illegal one.
i also think a lot of kids in gangs, and higher-ups in gangs, realize the parallel between the drug trade/gang life and the legal business world/gang life on a global scale. maybe that's something they can teach a lot of people about. But sadly it seems that some people on this blog won't hear that or anything else that makes them uncomfortable because there is an emphasis on demonizing people and making everything a good vs. evil dynamic.
many kids i've known who were in gangs didn't necessarily want to be in gangs or sell drugs but that was all they knew. They didn't have many other options available to them and many of them end up in prison, dead or as addicts. Do you think they really want that kind of life? But similarly, i think many affluent people end up working jobs they don't really like that contribute to the economic, political and military violence of the culture and their own personal depression. And many of them have been put on that track since they were young people in high school or earlier.
so if we acknowledge that we need a new type of society (which i do, but maybe many others here don't) we have to bring all people to the table and keep an open mind to what people say and what their experiences are, not only people in the U.S. but outside of it too. of course i agree that kids in gangs would have some things to learn from people on this blog but i think the opposite is equally true.
and "the soul of murray humphries," yes a lot of what i'm saying is a criticism of capitalism. i've traveled and spent time in different parts of Latin America and after those experiences it's a lot easier to see how capitalism and our U.S. corporate and military "gangs" have destroyed so much life all around the world -- to a far greater degree than street gangs disrupting life in the U.S. Sadly, we are all responsible for going along with out violence system.
also, i wish that some people on the blog would do a better job of controlling their emotions and avoid the name-calling. i know people get fired up but the name calling does not help, and maybe it's part of the culture of "blogging", i don't know as this website is my first foray into this type of stuff. i think if people were to post by their real names that sort of thing would be less likely to occur as each person would have to take personal responsibility for what they say. just a thought.
i hear what you're saying about your fear of being shot while walking your dog, but if you were poor and living in colombia or guatemala or nigeria, the people you might be prejudiced against might very well be people on this blog, or people working for the U.S. military or corporations. or if you were dark skinned and lived in inner city usa, you might also fear the police among other things. your fear and feelings are legitimate but they should not block you from hearing the feelings or fears of other people.
Ron: Do you think it's realistic to approach the next generation with a message that their three options are corporate gangs, street gangs, or your new version of the world?
I think you may find that your ideas are quite similar to those that see things as good versus evil.
I'm pumped about sewing wounds shut in Uptown by talking about addressing wounds 5,000 miles away. Super pumped.
i'm not even saying that i have a vision for a new world but it seems like a bunch of us throughout the world better find a vision for a new world fast! don't you think?
and i try not to demonize anyone: people who own condos, people who join the military, people who sell drugs, george bush, etc. i can UNDERSTAND why people do what they do. it just seems like it's time to reevaluate the whole system we're working with. so i think that's a little different than the good vs. evil dynamic.
and if we can get our oil and bananas and heroin and cheap labor sources on a daily basis from 5,000 miles away, why not work on "sewing wounds" there too? i'm not surprised that you wouldn't be "super-pumped" about that because it would require giving up some of our luxuries. i can relate to your feeling.
the point is that the problems in Uptown are indicative of larger problems throughout the world, we need to address the larger problem to affect local problems. of course we should work locally but without any wider view of the world and without being able to take responsibility for our own shit, we won't get far. we can call the cops all day and have meet and greets but it's gonna take more than that.
this blog isn't about Nigeria, the military, the war in Iraq, North Korea, NASA or anything else you would like to delve into.
It is about Uptown.
You were called a dumbass. Perhaps you can sing "kumbaya" and you'll feel better.
Now if you want to deal with reality instead of the alternative reality you apparently live in let's look at the police. Or as you might call them an "occupation force". This city will likely have around 400 murders this year. Most of those murders will somehow be gang related. During this year the police will likely kill less than 30 people.
Now just for grits and shins let's assume that one half of those police shootings are totally unjustified. Let's say that some angry, overweight, cop with anger issues is just driving through an alley and says "let's go kill that random male person of color". That's maybe 300 murders to 15 police "murders". What's the bigger issue?
In reality police don't shoot people randomly. They may make a bad judgment on occasion regarding shooting or even shoot or kill an innocent, very rare, but unlike many gangbangers they don't actively go out looking to harm people. Some fat off duty piece of crap cop beating up a bartender is no more indicative of the average cop than some scumbag gangbanger is indicative of the average 16 year old.
I know young people of color get harassed by the cops constantly. I know it has to suck. I suspect that while the harassment causes distrust it also saves lives. If you're inclined to be carrying a weapon to go shoot your rival you may be deterred because you know Officer Occupier may stop you and search you.
Now perhaps the cops should take a much more laid back approach and only respond to crime. Don't do anything proactive. Then you can go lead a prayer at the street memorial that is set up for the additional dead.
The world is a complicated place. Now go sing and beat your tambourine. You won't make any real difference, but you will feel better. After all that is what's really important. How Ron feels.
if large amounts of aggressive cops are the answer to crime then englewood and woodlawn should be the safest neighborhoods in Chicago right? the bottom line is that the cops can't solve these problems. the u.s. has the largest per capita prison population in the world right? so shouldn't we have less street crime and murders in the street than every other country? cook county jail is packed and there still is crime. what do we do? build another jail, arrest more people? is that the answer? that sounds a little bit like a dillusion. don't you think there could be something more at play here? do you think economics has anything to do with it? do you really think the cops are the only answer?
and i don't justify people killing each other, whether the person doing the killing is a cop or gang member or whatever. what is important is that the police are held accountable for what they do. and police misconduct goes beyond shootings. if they shoot someone unjustifiably they should be held accountable. if they TORTURE people, they should be held accountable. if they plant drugs on someone or if they threaten someone or IF THEY KEEP QUIET WHEN OTHER COPS DO THIS they should be held accountable. and if this is too much to expect then we need a whole new system of policing. do you not agree? do you not agree that the CPD has a long history of misconduct for which they have not been held accountable? if you experienced some of this treatment which you acknowledge would not be nice, you might think differently. and do you not think that some cops have a stake in the drug trade and benefit financially from it and don't arrest certain people involved in it?
and do you think cops being involved in misconduct helps them solve crime? do you think people want to cooperate with corrupt cops?
i don't want this to be personal but you made it that way a little bit i guess. you can condescend all you want but from what you wrote on your post i really don't think you have much of a grip on what's going on in the street, in the city and the world around it.
i agree that drug dealing is a brutal capitalist business!
and saskia,
i don't know much about labor ready, but as far as i know they are a temporary employment agency. i've done labor through temp agencies years ago and didn't have a great experience with the way i and other workers were treated. so i don't think that temp agencies are the solution for poor people looking for work, but i have used them in the past despite the fact that the labor they provide often takes the place of permanent jobs with benefits. actually, if they do move into uptown i would consider getting a short job or two through them as most of the work i do is not paid, despite my distaste for temp labor. but i can't say i know enough about labor ready to comment on all the issues at play with them possibly coming to Uptown.
I know young people of color get harassed by the cops constantly. I know it has to suck. I suspect that while the harassment causes distrust it also saves lives.
So people of color should just suck it up and take it for the good of the larger community?
Ron, I don't live in any of the war-torn countries you mention. I live in Uptown.
I'm glad you are politically active, and if communism is your ideal, I suggest you move to a country that practices that, and get back to us later if you feel it is such a superior way to live over capitalism.
I unfortunately don't have as much time on my hands as you do to discuss the faults of the United States. I do know that there are few other countries I would choose to live in over it. ALL countries have their issues. Every, single, one.
Bottom line, the discussion here is on gangs and violence in Uptown. I am well aware of how intelligent these gang members have become in making drug dealing and violence profitable. What, am I supposed to pat them on the back and give them a cookie and a hug for being such good students of the time-tested method of organized crime? What they do isn't new in the slightest... I'm not impressed.
What impresses me are the kids that also grew up in a crap-hole situation, yet made the bypass the criminal life, stay in school, work hard and become a solid, law abiding citizen.
Let's stick to the topic here Ron, you can floss your Che Guevara t-shirt on a political blog.
Let's just declare certain areas police free zones.
Cause the cops are the REAL problem. From now on the police can't do any proactive type of work.
If white middle class suburban kids were roaming around and shooting people the cops would have them on cars with their legs spread and their hands on the trunk. In fact if you were around here in the 70's the cops were doing the exact same thing they do to black and hispanic kids to the white kids that were here. Why? Because the white kids were bangers and violent.
Google "chicago" and gaylords and look at some of what you find.
Now please keep Uptown out of your "police free" zone. Because if you don't then life around here is going to get "nasty, brutish and short" for many people. Find an area that should be police free then move there.
I believe in defending myself and my property and that of others. My name is not Gandhi or Jesus. Just like I intervened to stop a beating in front of the Burger King on Irving a few months back. Hispanic kids beating the hell ouf of a black kid. Likely for no reason. At least no good reason. That's my values. You can turn the other cheek. I don't. In fact if it had been caught on camera I might get sued for excessive use of civilian force for tossing one kid about 6 or 7 feet when I picked him up by his pants. Now perhaps I should have talked to the young lads about how they are victims of a racist, classist system. I did tell them to get off the black kid and when that didn't work I utilized other means.
Guys like you do more damage than good. Focus on tutoring kids at night. I still do that one night a week and have for 20+ years. All those kids were black and from at or near what's left of Cabrini and most of them have done ok. Thankfully, none of the ones I am still in contact with do your kind of "outreach". They work, raise their families, and in a few cases run a baseball league in a black suburb. They should be out marching and fighting for justice. They should be blaming the system instead of working.
As for your focus on my bullet comment. Get over it. We have people being killed and you want to focus on the US military or some other injustice.
We have an innocent student killed on Broadway and you want to speak of police torture.
I don't think comparing Ronnie to the UnaBomber is fair. Amusing, but not fair.
Ron is well intentioned and non violent. Teddy K. is just a psycho.
As for Ron spending time in the federal pokie, I'm guessing it had to do with some protest. I googled his name months ago, but have forgotten the details.
Believe me if we lived in a world of everyone being like Ron it would be a better place. Guns and violence wouldn't exist. We don't live in that world and I doubt humanity will ever see that day.
While I was in the military I actually had to respond to protesters who would chain themselves to the Post fences on various holidays. Easter being the main one. They always struck me as decent folks as we waited for the US Marshals to take them into custody. Military personnel could only hold them and await federal civilian authorities to take them in.
Let's just declare certain areas police free zones.
Cause the cops are the REAL problem. From now on the police can't do any proactive type of work.
I asked a question. It's a yes or no thing. Nothing to "debate". If you don't want to answer it, it's cool. I was asking the original poster anyway. But if you want to weight in, have at it. Just answer yes or no. Simple.
I just got a call from Life Source Blood Services. They dig my O Positive Blood and my negative attitude. I think I'll bike downtown and visit their donor center. Better than wasting my time here. Perhaps my donation will help a shooting victim survive. Wouldn't that be "ironic".
Quick question and I expect no answer. In other words "rhetorical".
Cops get a tip that a group of 35 green colored kids are walking down Fullerton near Southport and one of them has an Uzi in his possession. It's a good tip from a good source. He plans to use this Uzi to shoot a rival for the affections of his shamrock toned girlfriend. Should the cops stop and pat down every kid? Isn't that unfair to the 34 kids who aren't carrying an Uzi? Yea it is unfair. It sucks in fact. It sucks less than being shot up or killed, yet it strikes me as the lesser of two evils.
What should the cops do?
As for that I'm finished with this thread. So have at me. My blood pressure is rising and that may forestall my blood donation.
Life Source blood donation. They have a shortage of group O and RH negative blood. Perhaps instead of pissing each other off those of us capable should donate. Click the link for locations.
i have no problem with you defending yourself, but your brining it up in a bragging/bravado type way on this blog is interesting.
if a young male acts/brags that way you might call it thuggish but if you act in such a way (communicating it over a blog at that, where you don't have to deal with the consequences) it's okay and actually something that you might be using to fuel a certain image of yourself.
i don't see your posturing ("If that happens to me and I catch the individuals it won't be pretty." and "That's my values. You can turn the other cheek. I don't. In fact if it had been caught on camera I might get sued for excessive use of civilian force for tossing one kid about 6 or 7 feet when I picked him up by his pants.") as being that different than many kids i've known who talk in such ways to express anger because they don't know other healthier ways to express it.
all i'm saying is that that double standard shouldn't exist and that many of the values we support in our culture (emphasis of accumulation of private property, men wanting to show how tough they are, use of force to get what we want) are quite similar to the values that you criticize gang members for exhibiting.
sadly, i'm not surprised that your argument has deteriorated to your talking about threats and your physical prowess.
I have a question for you. If police receive a credible tip that a group of youths are walking down the street with a gun, towards another group of youths with a gun a few blocks away, and those groups happen to be minorities, should the cops NOT stop these groups and search each and every one of them until the guns are located to stop someone from being killed? Or should the cops just avoid this at all costs, because it might appear to be racial profiling and police brutality?
You see, this is already happening in the 46th Ward, and beyond. The de-policing that is being discussed right now has just as much to do with the police fear of being persecuted as a racist or engaging in police brutality. Many police aren't able to to do their jobs effectively because some Aldermen politically tie their hands behind their back.
The result? We have seen an increase in drug and crime activity over last summer. Is this better for humanity overall?
Another question...
Where is the public outcry from the African American and Hispanic community against gangs? They are certainly the groups that suffer the most from the actions of these gangs. Why is there not a more public effort by leaders in these communities to denounce gang activity and efforts within these communities, by parents, politicians, leaders and schools to explain to these children, when they are young... that if they engage in this kind of behavior, all they are doing is feeding in to the stereotype that minorities are dangerous criminals and are to be feared?
My boss from a previous job, who is black, once commented to me, that every time she reads or hears about a shooting, murder, robbery that makes the news, she prays that it wasn't done by a black person. Why? Because it feeds the beast of racism. It gives ignorant white people the opportunity to say "See? Look, ANOTHER murder, ANOTHER rape, by a minority!" This of course is not fair, and wrong because not every minority is a dangerous criminal, just like not all white people are rich, racist yuppies who have everything handed to them.
I know for a fact (because I've been told this by more than a few black people I've engaged in this conversation) that when white people band together and march against crime and gangs, and drugs... it is perceived by many minorities to be 'racist'. Why is that? Don't we all, as human beings at our base have the same values in life? Don't we all just want a decent place to live, a job that pays a fair wage, healthcare, food on the table for our family, a safe neighborhood for our kids to play in and good schools so they have a shot in life?
So where is the leadership in the minority communities speaking up against the violence that is destroying their neighborhoods, their children, their lives and the very perception of how other races view them? I have heard Bill Cosby... and he speaks the truth. But why is he largely dismissed for his views? Why don't famous minorities like actors, athletes and musicians - ROLE MODELS for many of these children growing up in poor 'ghetto' neighborhoods - take a leadership role and speak out publicly and often against gangs and a life of crime? Why do so many rappers instead, do the exact opposite and glorify this kind of life in their music, making it sound like those who do so are 'hard, and tough and rich' like this is a life to emulate?
I just don't understand, and seriously want someone to explain this to me, legitamately WHY this is the state of affairs these days? WHY is it racist for white people to be against gangs, drugs and crime? WHY isn't there more push back from the minority communities that suffer the most because of the action of these gangs, drug dealers, etc.? Is it simply fear? If so, how many 5 year-olds have to get shot in the head while riding their bike before a community says enough is enough, and takes matter into their OWN hands instead of just demanding the government and police do more? Because when the government and police DO do more, those same police and government are racist and egaging in police brutality. Damned if they do... damned if they don't.
I'm at a loss here folks... I'm not trying to provoke any kind of heated debate, I truly want to understand why this appears to be the case these days? Because I feel when I attend CAPS, or block club meetings, or volunteer that sometimes I'm pushing against a brick wall.
I said I wouldn't respond on this thread and beyond this I don't intend to. Although "this" will likely be "long".
I live in the real world. I wish I lived in the world that you would like to see. I wish I lived in the world the Berrigan brothers would have liked to see. I don't. You don't.
You're never going to see that world. It can't exist. It would mean fundamentally changing human nature. You can portray me as arrogant, I'm certainly guilty of that, but my level of arrogance and bravado pales in comparison to you, who not only wants to change society, but is willing to go to jail to do it. There is something admirable in that. There is also more than a bit of "tilting at windmills" in that.
This board is supposedly about Uptown. If some group of teenagers "goons" an older disabled guy, as happened here recently, I really don't want to worry about how consumerist culture may have contributed to that. I want them arrested and punished. You could pray with them. Just don't turn your back.
Unlike you I don't see the light. I don't see ALL the answers. I'm not a true believer. I haven't drank the sweet Kool Aid of total righteousness and total arrogance. I'm not young enough or stupid enough to believe I have all the answers.
You do some admirable things. I wonder if tutoring and working with the homeless done by millions would not affect more real change than "tilting at windmills".
Oh well..........somewhere Dorothy Day is smiling down upon you and likely frowning at me.
I have a question for you. If police receive a credible tip that a group of youths are walking down the street with a gun, towards another group of youths with a gun a few blocks away, and those groups happen to be minorities, should the cops NOT stop these groups and search each and every one of them until the guns are located to stop someone from being killed? Or should the cops just avoid this at all costs, because it might appear to be racial profiling and police brutality?
We aren't talking about whether or not the police should stop people who might be suspects. They should if it means preventing crime. What we're talking about (or attempting talk about) is this: I know young people of color get harassed by the cops constantly. I know it has to suck. I suspect that while the harassment causes distrust it also saves lives.
So I asked (since irishpirate acknowledged that young people of color get "harassed" - their word- by the cops constantly, but it saves lives) does this mean that they should just suck up their complaints of harassment for the greater good of the community.
Nowhere in my questioning did I say the cops SHOULDN'T stop suspects on the street. If I did say that, show me. I don't need hypothetical scenarios about green-skinned people, etc. I just asked one question: Should these people of color that irishpirate admits are harassed keep their mouth shut about it for the greater good of the community?
There are TONS of protests in the city all the time in "minority" communities to try to end gang violence. They're on the news and in the papers constantly, although mostly on slow weekends. Only someone with selective vision wouldn't make note of this.
Sorry, I shouldn't pick your post apart here, and I know this is a blog that is supposed to focus specificaly on Uptown and not the "grand scheme", but some of the "observations" seem connected to some of the problems.
"The de-policing that is being discussed right now has just as much to do with the police fear of being persecuted as a racist or engaging in police brutality."
The depolicing has nothing to do with cops being accused of racism. They couldnt' care less about that (and if you want proof, read the blog "Second City Cop"). It has to do with cops feeling that the city doesn't have their back when they get SUED for alleged brutality.
Where is the public outcry from the African American and Hispanic community against gangs? Already answered this. YOu need to look around you more.
My boss from a previous job, who is black, once commented to me, that every time she reads or hears about a shooting, murder, robbery that makes the news, she prays that it wasn't done by a black person.
Sounds like a personal problem of hers. Me, I don't base my personal self-image on the actions of others. I couldn't give a flying ... Wallenda what someone thinks of me if they're basing it on something that happened 100 miles away from where I am. That would mean I'm placing value on the opinion of an idiot. Minorities aren't the Borg. If you want to look at one minority and see the entire race, nothing anyone can do about that but you.
I know for a fact ...that when white people band together and march against crime and gangs, and drugs... it is perceived by many minorities to be 'racist'.
Where are these marches taking place in the city? Any links I can read? Are these marches that DON'T involve minorities as well? And who has called these alleged marches "racist"? Or is this just your personal perception?
I have heard Bill Cosby... and he speaks the truth. But why is he largely dismissed for his views?
Largely dismissed by whom? Again, if you have proof of this, direct me to it.
WHY is it racist for white people to be against gangs, drugs and crime?
Who said this? Once again, if you have real proof that being anti-gang, anti-drug and anti-crime is considered "racist", share it.
If so, how many 5 year-olds have to get shot in the head while riding their bike before a community says enough is enough, and takes matter into their OWN hands instead of just demanding the government and police do more?
Aren't YOU a member of this community? Can't YOU say enough is enough? Or is it "minorities take care of minorities and white take care of whites" in your opinion?
Why do so many rappers instead, do the exact opposite and glorify this kind of life in their music, making it sound like those who do so are 'hard, and tough and rich' like this is a life to emulate?
God, not the rap argument again... They promote that life because it sells and record companies, most of which are NOT run by minorities, are making big profits off of it.
BTW, the phrase "party like a rock star" doesn't mean going to church and attending PTA meeting.
Sorry for hijacking this blog and this entry. I know it has nothing to do with Uptown (or maybe it does in some larger sense). But the I can't put half of the stuff I want to in this response.
Calm down... I never wrote that you claimed police shouldn't stop suspects. I was asking you your opinion on that subject, and you responded. Thank you...
To answer your question, if anyone is harrassed, roughed up, attacked, etc. by the police, regardless of their color and if they weren't provoking the police (as in screaming Eff You PIG, or other derogatory comments) and are just minding their own biz... YES they SHOULD be pissed, and SHOULD speak out against it.
As far as my 'selective vision' If you read my post, I was not referring to just the people in these communities who have staged protests against the gangs and violence. I of course, have seen these on the news, and read about it in the paper.
I am specifically asking about LEADERS, people who do have the political or public clout to truly make a difference. Why don't we see more of it?
why not tell us your opinion on the questin you asked?
Wow, throwing it back instead of simply answering it. Great. I guess, then, that that's my answer.
My opinion is that they shouldn't suck it up and take it "for the good of the community". Look, the police should do what they have to do (search REAL suspects, etc.). Hey, I'm a "fan" of the cops. If I get robbed, who am I gonna call, a librarian? But randomly stopping people because they fit maybe one criteria of the suspect's profile? Sorry, no. Look, I've been stopped and frisked on the street several times, the last time across the street from the Green Mill. Cop car pulls up, two cops get out. Immediately start patting me down, asking me questions, etc. And just as suddenly walked off. No, in the grand scheme of things, it's was no big deal and maybe it helped catch the real guy they were looking for. But as a guy who graduated college, was a newspaper reporter in this town for more than 10 years, and at that time worked for the city (just like them!), yeah, it pissed off that because I met one or two of their criteria (well, he was a black guy and he was in the area) I was now a suspect. And no, I don't blame society. And no, I'm harbor no lingering resentment.
So since you're asking, no, no one, white or black or whatever, shouldn't just take it for the good of the community. If protesting it makes cops work a little harder instead of taking the easy route to crime prevention, become better policemen, better observers and better at their job, then great. THAT is for "the good of the community".
I am specifically asking about LEADERS, people who do have the political or public clout to truly make a difference. Why don't we see more of it?
See, you're barking up the wrong tree with me when it comes to discussing "leaders". There are no "leaders" of the Latino or black community just as I suspect there are no "leaders" of the white community (or are there? You tell me). That's a term made up by the media as a handy way of identifying activists, organizers, etc. and unfortunately adopted by some. Unless there was a referendom or something I missed, most are self-appointed.
As for "people who have the political clout to truly make a difference", I know of only one who has that kind of power. Guy named Daley. And last I looked, he wasn't a minority.
And no reason to suggest I calm down. Frustrated at misinformation, perhaps, but definitely calm.
To the rest of the folks here, again, sorry for hijacking this blog. I'll try to stop.
Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate it. I wasn't trying to upset anyone with my post, albeit it is a sensitive topic.
No, I don't have hard core statistics or stories to share with you. This is my personal experience, conversations I've had with both white people and black people. Of course, everyone's opinion varied on these topics, regardless of their race.
An example of a "march" would be the one that was held in front of Shiller's office in June. More than one person commented on UU about a 'bunch of white people' marching, etc, the tone wasn't supportive.
And of course I say, 'enough is enough.' and I am part of the community, that is why I participated in that march after the Truman student was killed and why I go to CAPS and block club meetings when I can.
The Bill Cosby thing, I read a story about the opposition he faces from minority communities - it was posted in the Trib a few months ago. I think Eric Zorn did an editorial about it, and the comments board on that was eye-opening to say the least.
We come from two different sides of the perspective, so obviously our view of it is going to be different on this. I appreciate your feedback and your view point on this.
To answer your question, if anyone is harrassed, roughed up, attacked, etc. by the police, regardless of their color and if they weren't provoking the police (as in screaming Eff You PIG, or other derogatory comments) and are just minding their own biz... YES they SHOULD be pissed, and SHOULD speak out against it.
Oh, and I meant to thank you for answering the question. You're the only one so far. Thanks.
No need to apologize for monopolizing the blog. It's my fault for bringing it up in the first place. I wasn't intending to upset anyone or open pandora's box.
I agree that being randomly pat down by a cop sucks and isn't right. I've never had that happen to me, so I can't relate to that. I would hope that the police had a viable reason for doing so, but from what I've heard, this is common. It shouldn't be.
I really do appreciate your feedback and viewpoint on these subjects. I am naive in this area and can only speak from my experience, but I was legitimately looking for another point of view so I can understand these issues better. I didn't mean to offend you, or others reading this. So I apologize. I probably shouldn't of used UU to launch this topic. The 'gang' issue got me going.
I've only been patted down by the po po one time. Long ago when I was a teenager. I think I met their profile of being a teenager. I'm sure it happens to black and hispanic males much more frequently depending on where they live. I was pissed off about it.
I would compare it in some neighborhoods as something similar to being hassled at the airport by security. The violence in some neighborhoods is so out of hand that it may be justified. It's a question of what's more important. Individual rights or the life of someone.
Cops in some suburb recently basically put traffic blocks at a high crime apartment complex and stopped everyone. Was it justified? It seemed opinion in the complex was divided.
Is it justified to have metal detectors at many public schools?
Do the ends justify the means?
Coke or Pepsi?
Ginger or MaryAnn?
Cubs or Sox?
What we could all hope for, but never see, is an end to the stupid violence.
It's my fault for bringing it up in the first place.
Farrell: Nope, don't apologize for nuthin'. it's never anyone's fault for saying what they think. How else will figure out where the problem may lie. Keep bringing it up. I may seem a bit cantankerous when I write; that's just my old journalistic instincts coming out. At the end of the day, I'm just another guy spouting off on a blog. My opinion is no more valid than anyone elses.
besides, I know where you're coming from and trust me, I didn't see any maliciousness in your words. Sorry if I made it seem that way.
ah, that's the question. But I'm glad you brought up the issue in the first place. I didn't mean for it to become a full blown racial/brutality/stereotyping debate. Just was wondering what people thought.
And yeah, teens get hasseled a lot by the cops. ALL teens. But it becomes something different when you've paid your dues as an adult and you're treated line a common criminal. That's why I say while I appreciate and respect the cops, just stopping some random guy because he minimally fits the description?... there's got to be a better way.
Oh, and to answer your other questions: Coke, Mary Ann and White Sox.
An example of a "march" would be the one that was held in front of Shiller's office in June. More than one person commented on UU about a 'bunch of white people' marching, etc, the tone wasn't supportive.
If few blacks were at an anti crime march, why in blazes would that come across as something negative about white people? They were the ones marching.
I'm personally delighted that anyone makes a stand against any type of crime. I really don't care what the color of their skin happens to be.
A reader writes: "I came across this last night while walking in the 'hood, and immediately called 311. Happily, the 311 operator told me that it had already been reported and was in the queue to be removed."
I take it this recurring quote was uttered at some point by our esteemed and learned alderman. Having been blissfully ignorant myself in Buena Park these past few years, could someone fill me in?
ReplyDeleteI believe the exact quote was an indignant: "Not here!"
ReplyDeleteObviously there are at the very least, members here, who like to vandalize property and make us pay for their ignorance. Booooo!
ReplyDeleteLuckily, residents are taking a stand and having these tags quickly removed. Hopefully they will see this isn't a territory they can claim.
Note: preventing youths from joining gangs is the best policy, and maybe we should look into supporting those programs and the similar ones that help counsel and lead young men (and women) out of gang culture and into the mainstream. Like they said at the rally, it really takes a village (go HR-C!)
Neighborhoods all over Chicago, not just Uptown, suffer this nuisance.
ReplyDeleteThe best course is to report the tagger/gang symbol graffiti and have it removed as quickly as possible.
Bitching and speculating about what role your alderman plays regarding the actions of moronic punks bearing spray cans is, well, just mental wanking.
At the Town Hall meeting earlier this week the CPD said that Uptown has three gangs that they are targeting. I forget the names of them.
ReplyDeletePerhaps like some others in the neighborhood, our alderman can't tell and doesn't care about the difference between hip-hop art and a gangbanger marking his territory like a dog pissing on a fire hydrant. This is gang tagging.
ReplyDeleteContrast it with the piece on the building just west of the southbound red line heading toward DePaul, yeah that one with the gal and her, um, detailed naked breasts. Amazing and beautiful work. Its been there for months, I'm beginning to wonder if the building owner might just be thinking it would be a shame to paint over it.
But I'm certain the morality police (think of the poor children!) will eventually win, and I'll be left with the cheesy four-foot casino dice painted in gloss enamel on the building before the Belmont stop, which of course, because permission was given and money exchaged, is called "advertising."
kenny-
ReplyDeleteIf the owner of the building with busty lady invited the painting, appreciates the painting, or generally just doesn't care...fine. If he/she didn't want it, doesn't like it, doesn't want it but can't afford the hardship of a remedy...the arrogant vandal should be arrested and forced to make reparations.
Actually...the second scenario needn't be hardship dependant.
ReplyDeleteyou can find what gangs are in uptown at http://chicagogangs.org/index.php?pr=GANG_MAP_NORTH
ReplyDeleteit is an interactive map showing most of the chicago gangs on the north side . . .
Easier link to the gang map. Just click on a colored area and it will show you the "youth organization" that hangs out there.
ReplyDeleteyou can see some the gangs in uptown by going to
ReplyDeletehttp://chicagogangs.org/index.php?pr=GANG_MAP_NORTH
it is an interactive map of many of the northside gangs . . you have to scroll up and zoom in
I forget the names of them.
ReplyDeleteThat would be the Latin Kings, the PStones and the Conservative Vice Lords. Apparently there is a truce right now between the CVL and the PStones. These signs are clearly Latin Kings(the five point crown, or sometimes the three point crown, I'm not sure of the significance of the difference).
I believ the other two are disrespecting signs towards the CVL, but don't hold me to that.
Ok, after a litte research, it appears the second sign is a sign of disrespect to the Gangster Disciples(the pitchfork aimed down).
ReplyDeleteI think I'm wrong about the crown, I believe thats also a CVL sign as well.
Since the 60's --
ReplyDeletehttp://www.gaylords712.com/sungln.html-- but back then they were predominantly white boys.
"Conservative Vice Lords"? I assume they support school prayer, lower income tax, and drilling in ANWAR? hahahah
ReplyDelete"Conservative Vice Lords"? I assume they support school prayer, lower income tax, and drilling in ANWAR? hahahah
ReplyDeleteAs a bit of a comic exercise, lets look at the similarities between Conservatives and Conservative Vice Lords
1) Neither group believes in paying taxes.
2) Both will shoot you if you don't agree with them
3) Both groups have many of their leaders in jail.
How to tell if your graffiti is by the Conservative Vice Lords or the Conservatives:
ReplyDeleteConservative Vice Lords
Conservatives
One gang wouldn't be so much of an issue for Uptown.
ReplyDeleteThree gangs with overlapping turf is a nightmare recipe for gun battles at 3:30PM and 5PM.
andy -
ReplyDeleteas violent as mainstream U.S. culture is, i don't think encouraging kids to enter the "mainstream" is a great idea, unless we adults and kids change what the "mainstream" is.
maybe THEY have a lot to teach US about our society and how it should be changed.
maybe THEY have a lot to teach US about our society and how it should be changed.
ReplyDeleteHold on, are you referring to the kids in the gangs? They're going to teach US a few things about how not to be violent?
I'm really just hoping that you've misused some pronouns, because thats an asinine argument.
Ron is from COURAJ and Copwatch, so chances are it's an asinine argument.
ReplyDeleteRon, you are a dumbass. Mainstream means what most kids do. Most kids go to school then when they leave school, they get a job that is legal and live their lives without harming other people. The kids that are in a gang don't do this. If you want to learn what gang kids can teach us, here are some ideas:
ReplyDelete1. How to sell a dime bag.
2. How to set up a neighborhood drug operation.
3. How to live in a shit hole and promote the shit hole lifestyle by pissing outdoors and throwing their garbage on the ground.
4. How to pull off the jacket in any kind of weather look.
5. How to pull off the white t-shirt in any kind of weather look.
6. How to drop out/skip school and still make enough money to feed you, your grandma, your baby and your baby momma.
and finally
7. How to hang on the street corner in any kind of weather even at 11 pm at night when its 10 below zero outside.
Ron ... Go learn all you can from these kids and get back to us.
Cowboy, well stated!
ReplyDeleteRon, I assume from what you write, that you work with these kids in some capacity. I also assume from your use of punctuation and writing, that you are educated. Your comment obviously hit a nerve with some of the people on this blog, which I can understand; however, in the interest of fairness, can you please explain what exactly you have learned from the kids your are referring to? I ask this in honesty as it sure seems to me that they have a lot to learn from educated, socially-conscious individuals such as yourself and many of the people who post on this site, even if the ways of going about being socially conscious differ.
ReplyDelete"Most kids go to school then when they leave school, they get a job that is legal and live their lives without harming other people."
ReplyDeleteI may be wrong, but I took Ron's post to be a short summary of "What's the matter with Capitalism". If you don't want kids to choose a certain path, what are you doing to deter them?
I certainly don't see the use in excusing criminal acts of people.
At the public safety meeting a few people did make comments with clear intentions. "Give us", "Create it", "Build it".
ReplyDeleteYou have neighbors that are expecting something from somebody in order to change their ways.
Pay to play. Heard of it?
"Conservative Vice Lords"? Are there also Reform Vice Lords, Orthodox Vice Lords and Hasidic Vice Lords as well?
ReplyDeleteCOwboy,
ReplyDeleteYOu comment was very ignorant and prejudice as well!!! HOw about you get the He** off your horse and open your eyes!!! And I"m sure if there weren't people like you supporting the drug trade, these nickel and dime drug dealers that you are talking about wouldn't be able to keep their business flowing. HOwever, their highest drug sales of the day usually come from the "wealthly," "educated", citizens of uptown!!!
There is a difference between being racist and prejudice!!! Never called him a racist!!!
ReplyDeleteANd FYI I never said drug dealing was okay!!!! But buying and using drugs isn't okay either!!!
ReplyDeleteYes I was making a joke but the facts of the joke ring true for me and a lot of families in Uptown that want to make this a better place and by better place I mean free of gangs/drugs, random shootings, trash all over the streets, homeless people urinating in public in open view of our children, etc.
ReplyDeleteYou claim I'm prejudiced well I am against gang members/drug dealers. I think you'll find most people on this blog are prejudiced against gang members/drug dealers. And FYI, I have had a family member ruin almost 8 years of his life using drugs so don't think I condone selling or using in any manner. The only people that have any real benefit from the drug trade are the dealers. Everyone else just gets hurt.
It's not just a matter of illegal drug per se, but also the hypocrisy that permeates the drug trade. Hoe many of those "lower class" Uptown drug dealers count "yuppie" condo owners and/or middle-class suburban kids attending shows at the Riviera among their clientele? It's a story as old as "The Man with the Golden Arm" - illegal drugs are "bad" for the poor people while those in the upper strata who benefit from the trade in one way or the other get a pass.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about anyone else but I don't care who participates in the drug trade either as a buyer or a seller. It is illegal and the effects are permeating our community in the most negative of ways. I am "educated" and somewhat "wealthy" and I say that all should be punished until this scourge stops. killing. people.
ReplyDeleteAnd I"m sure if there weren't people like you supporting the drug trade, these nickel and dime drug dealers that you are talking about wouldn't be able to keep their business flowing.
ReplyDeleteHey, we don't allow flaming other posters here. And I really can't believe you accused someone you don't know of being a drug buyer and user, based on one post.
Please show some courtesy to your fellow posters in the future. We appreciate it. And while it's really easy to delete posts, it's something we'd rather not have to do.
Does anyone here think that cops aren't busting, shall we say "Uptown Citizens on high horses"? If what dacutestmama says is true, then they are probably the adults most likely to be carrying sizeable amounts because the big dealers make it so that they don't ever have anything on them. If what dacutestmama says is true, why not make this a harder place to buy (and cause trouble for people Helen doesn't like)?
ReplyDeleteJust a reminder, but the very same areas where residents 'allegedly' identify gang members and drug dealers(4500 N Magnolia, 4700 N Malden) are the very same areas that were rolled up in 1999 by officers from HUD in cooperation with local beat 2311 police officers.
ReplyDeleteThat was almost 10 years ago.
If you don't keep at it, the same exact problems will return.
wow. my post created some discussion, i don't have a bunch of time to respond right now but i must say, "caring neighbor" your comment directed to "dacutestmama" that read "Please show some courtesy to your fellow posters in the future. We appreciate it. And while it's really easy to delete posts, it's something we'd rather not have to do." seems ironic in that you did not direct a similar comment to "cowboy" for referring to me as a "dumbass". it really doesn't bother me much that he wrote that other than that it does not help foster real discussion but in the interest of being objective, i'd be interested as to why you didn't take issue with "cowboy's" remark but you did with "dacutestmama's"? please respond...
ReplyDeleteWell, I guess I am prejudiced against gang bangers. I prefer not getting shot for absolutely no reason other than I happened to be outside walking my dog.
ReplyDeleteron-
ReplyDeleteI'll respond (even though your request isn't directed towards me). There is a difference between an observation and an accusation. Granted, civil discourse should preclude such adjectives as "dumbass". Like cowboy, I observed that you posted a comment completely devoid of inteligent thought. dacutestmama, however, accused cowboy and people like him of being a drug user. In fact, it is my understanding the drug trade in Uptown is predominantly from well outside the neighborhood.
cowboy, you say,
ReplyDelete"And FYI, I have had a family member ruin almost 8 years of his life using drugs so don't think I condone selling or using in any manner. The only people that have any real benefit from the drug trade are the dealers. Everyone else just gets hurt."
i'm sorry that someone in your family has struggled with drug abuse, i know people who have the same struggles. I also know many people who struggle with alcohol abuse as i'm sure you do too. Does your position towards drugs other than alcohol translate over to alcohol as well? do you not condone selling or using alcohol in any manner as well? if not, why? simply because it's legal, even though the consequences of alcohol use could arguably be the worst of any drug, other than cigarettes?
also, i think there are some rather large banks and politicians and cops and government entities and the like benefiting from the drug trade, not just dealers. if anything the dealers are on the lower end of those who benefit.
one of my points is that just because something is legal, it does not mean it's a good thing for people to do. The whole economic system we have is generally a hustle to make money and obtain material things. Some people take part in this hustle in a legal way (those who have access to the channels of "success" --good schools, parents with connections,etc generally go this route), others take part in an extralegal or illegal way. i personally try to remove myself as much as i can from this hustle because i think it is inherently violent and i think the world could use a whole new way of living and relating to one another. i wouldn't feel right directing young people in either direction, the legal hustle or the illegal one.
i also think a lot of kids in gangs, and higher-ups in gangs, realize the parallel between the drug trade/gang life and the legal business world/gang life on a global scale. maybe that's something they can teach a lot of people about. But sadly it seems that some people on this blog won't hear that or anything else that makes them uncomfortable because there is an emphasis on demonizing people and making everything a good vs. evil dynamic.
many kids i've known who were in gangs didn't necessarily want to be in gangs or sell drugs but that was all they knew. They didn't have many other options available to them and many of them end up in prison, dead or as addicts. Do you think they really want that kind of life? But similarly, i think many affluent people end up working jobs they don't really like that contribute to the economic, political and military violence of the culture and their own personal depression. And many of them have been put on that track since they were young people in high school or earlier.
so if we acknowledge that we need a new type of society (which i do, but maybe many others here don't) we have to bring all people to the table and keep an open mind to what people say and what their experiences are, not only people in the U.S. but outside of it too. of course i agree that kids in gangs would have some things to learn from people on this blog but i think the opposite is equally true.
and "the soul of murray humphries," yes a lot of what i'm saying is a criticism of capitalism. i've traveled and spent time in different parts of Latin America and after those experiences it's a lot easier to see how capitalism and our U.S. corporate and military "gangs" have destroyed so much life all around the world -- to a far greater degree than street gangs disrupting life in the U.S. Sadly, we are all responsible for going along with out violence system.
also, i wish that some people on the blog would do a better job of controlling their emotions and avoid the name-calling. i know people get fired up but the name calling does not help, and maybe it's part of the culture of "blogging", i don't know as this website is my first foray into this type of stuff. i think if people were to post by their real names that sort of thing would be less likely to occur as each person would have to take personal responsibility for what they say. just a thought.
farrell,
ReplyDeletei hear what you're saying about your fear of being shot while walking your dog, but if you were poor and living in colombia or guatemala or nigeria, the people you might be prejudiced against might very well be people on this blog, or people working for the U.S. military or corporations. or if you were dark skinned and lived in inner city usa, you might also fear the police among other things.
your fear and feelings are legitimate but they should not block you from hearing the feelings or fears of other people.
Ron: Do you think it's realistic to approach the next generation with a message that their three options are corporate gangs, street gangs, or your new version of the world?
ReplyDeleteI think you may find that your ideas are quite similar to those that see things as good versus evil.
I'm pumped about sewing wounds shut in Uptown by talking about addressing wounds 5,000 miles away. Super pumped.
"murray humphries,"
ReplyDeletei'm not even saying that i have a vision for a new world but it seems like a bunch of us throughout the world better find a vision for a new world fast! don't you think?
and i try not to demonize anyone: people who own condos, people who join the military, people who sell drugs, george bush, etc. i can UNDERSTAND why people do what they do. it just seems like it's time to reevaluate the whole system we're working with. so i think that's a little different than the good vs. evil dynamic.
and if we can get our oil and bananas and heroin and cheap labor sources on a daily basis from 5,000 miles away, why not work on "sewing wounds" there too? i'm not surprised that you wouldn't be "super-pumped" about that because it would require giving up some of our luxuries. i can relate to your feeling.
the point is that the problems in Uptown are indicative of larger problems throughout the world, we need to address the larger problem to affect local problems. of course we should work locally but without any wider view of the world and without being able to take responsibility for our own shit, we won't get far. we can call the cops all day and have meet and greets but it's gonna take more than that.
Ron,
ReplyDeletethis blog isn't about Nigeria, the military, the war in Iraq, North Korea, NASA or anything else you would like to delve into.
It is about Uptown.
You were called a dumbass. Perhaps you can sing "kumbaya" and you'll feel better.
Now if you want to deal with reality instead of the alternative reality you apparently live in let's look at the police. Or as you might call them an "occupation force". This city will likely have around 400 murders this year. Most of those murders will somehow be gang related. During this year the police will likely kill less than 30 people.
Now just for grits and shins let's assume that one half of those police shootings are totally unjustified. Let's say that some angry, overweight, cop with anger issues is just driving through an alley and says "let's go kill that random male person of color". That's maybe 300 murders to 15 police "murders". What's the bigger issue?
In reality police don't shoot people randomly. They may make a bad judgment on occasion regarding shooting or even shoot or kill an innocent, very rare, but unlike many gangbangers they don't actively go out looking to harm people. Some fat off duty piece of crap cop beating up a bartender is no more indicative of the average cop than some scumbag gangbanger is indicative of the average 16 year old.
I know young people of color get harassed by the cops constantly. I know it has to suck. I suspect that while the harassment causes distrust it also saves lives. If you're inclined to be carrying a weapon to go shoot your rival you may be deterred because you know Officer Occupier may stop you and search you.
Now perhaps the cops should take a much more laid back approach and only respond to crime. Don't do anything proactive. Then you can go lead a prayer at the street memorial that is set up for the additional dead.
The world is a complicated place. Now go sing and beat your tambourine. You won't make any real difference, but you will feel better. After all that is what's really important. How Ron feels.
Ron, what do you think about Labor Ready coming to Uptown?
ReplyDeleteso "irishpirate",
ReplyDeleteif large amounts of aggressive cops are the answer to crime then englewood and woodlawn should be the safest neighborhoods in Chicago right? the bottom line is that the cops can't solve these problems. the u.s. has the largest per capita prison population in the world right? so shouldn't we have less street crime and murders in the street than every other country? cook county jail is packed and there still is crime. what do we do? build another jail, arrest more people? is that the answer? that sounds a little bit like a dillusion. don't you think there could be something more at play here? do you think economics has anything to do with it? do you really think the cops are the only answer?
and i don't justify people killing each other, whether the person doing the killing is a cop or gang member or whatever. what is important is that the police are held accountable for what they do. and police misconduct goes beyond shootings. if they shoot someone unjustifiably they should be held accountable. if they TORTURE people, they should be held accountable. if they plant drugs on someone or if they threaten someone or IF THEY KEEP QUIET WHEN OTHER COPS DO THIS they should be held accountable. and if this is too much to expect then we need a whole new system of policing. do you not agree? do you not agree that the CPD has a long history of misconduct for which they have not been held accountable? if you experienced some of this treatment which you acknowledge would not be nice, you might think differently. and do you not think that some cops have a stake in the drug trade and benefit financially from it and don't arrest certain people involved in it?
and do you think cops being involved in misconduct helps them solve crime? do you think people want to cooperate with corrupt cops?
i don't want this to be personal but you made it that way a little bit i guess. you can condescend all you want but from what you wrote on your post i really don't think you have much of a grip on what's going on in the street, in the city and the world around it.
i agree that drug dealing is a brutal capitalist business!
ReplyDeleteand saskia,
i don't know much about labor ready, but as far as i know they are a temporary employment agency. i've done labor through temp agencies years ago and didn't have a great experience with the way i and other workers were treated. so i don't think that temp agencies are the solution for poor people looking for work, but i have used them in the past despite the fact that the labor they provide often takes the place of permanent jobs with benefits. actually, if they do move into uptown i would consider getting a short job or two through them as most of the work i do is not paid, despite my distaste for temp labor. but i can't say i know enough about labor ready to comment on all the issues at play with them possibly coming to Uptown.
I know young people of color get harassed by the cops constantly. I know it has to suck. I suspect that while the harassment causes distrust it also saves lives.
ReplyDeleteSo people of color should just suck it up and take it for the good of the larger community?
Ron, I don't live in any of the war-torn countries you mention. I live in Uptown.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you are politically active, and if communism is your ideal, I suggest you move to a country that practices that, and get back to us later if you feel it is such a superior way to live over capitalism.
I unfortunately don't have as much time on my hands as you do to discuss the faults of the United States. I do know that there are few other countries I would choose to live in over it. ALL countries have their issues. Every, single, one.
Bottom line, the discussion here is on gangs and violence in Uptown. I am well aware of how intelligent these gang members have become in making drug dealing and violence profitable. What, am I supposed to pat them on the back and give them a cookie and a hug for being such good students of the time-tested method of organized crime? What they do isn't new in the slightest... I'm not impressed.
What impresses me are the kids that also grew up in a crap-hole situation, yet made the bypass the criminal life, stay in school, work hard and become a solid, law abiding citizen.
Let's stick to the topic here Ron, you can floss your Che Guevara t-shirt on a political blog.
Man on the Street,
ReplyDeletehave at it. Debate it.
Let's just declare certain areas police free zones.
Cause the cops are the REAL problem. From now on the police can't do any proactive type of work.
If white middle class suburban kids were roaming around and shooting people the cops would have them on cars with their legs spread and their hands on the trunk. In fact if you were around here in the 70's the cops were doing the exact same thing they do to black and hispanic kids to the white kids that were here. Why? Because the white kids were bangers and violent.
Google "chicago" and gaylords and look at some of what you find.
Now please keep Uptown out of your "police free" zone. Because if you don't then life around here is going to get "nasty, brutish and short" for many people. Find an area that should be police free then move there.
Ron,
ReplyDeleteI believe in defending myself and my property and that of others. My name is not Gandhi or Jesus. Just like I intervened to stop a beating in front of the Burger King on Irving a few months back. Hispanic kids beating the hell ouf of a black kid. Likely for no reason. At least no good reason. That's my values. You can turn the other cheek. I don't. In fact if it had been caught on camera I might get sued for excessive use of civilian force for tossing one kid about 6 or 7 feet when I picked him up by his pants. Now perhaps I should have talked to the young lads about how they are victims of a racist, classist system. I did tell them to get off the black kid and when that didn't work I utilized other means.
Guys like you do more damage than good. Focus on tutoring kids at night. I still do that one night a week and have for 20+ years. All those kids were black and from at or near what's left of Cabrini and most of them have done ok. Thankfully, none of the ones I am still in contact with do your kind of "outreach". They work, raise their families, and in a few cases run a baseball league in a black suburb. They should be out marching and fighting for justice. They should be blaming the system instead of working.
As for your focus on my bullet comment. Get over it. We have people being killed and you want to focus on the US military or some other injustice.
We have an innocent student killed on Broadway and you want to speak of police torture.
I don't think comparing Ronnie to the UnaBomber is fair. Amusing, but not fair.
ReplyDeleteRon is well intentioned and non violent. Teddy K. is just a psycho.
As for Ron spending time in the federal pokie, I'm guessing it had to do with some protest. I googled his name months ago, but have forgotten the details.
Believe me if we lived in a world of everyone being like Ron it would be a better place. Guns and violence wouldn't exist. We don't live in that world and I doubt humanity will ever see that day.
While I was in the military I actually had to respond to protesters who would chain themselves to the Post fences on various holidays. Easter being the main one. They always struck me as decent folks as we waited for the US Marshals to take them into custody. Military personnel could only hold them and await federal civilian authorities to take them in.
Man on the Street,
ReplyDeletehave at it. Debate it.
Let's just declare certain areas police free zones.
Cause the cops are the REAL problem. From now on the police can't do any proactive type of work.
I asked a question. It's a yes or no thing. Nothing to "debate". If you don't want to answer it, it's cool. I was asking the original poster anyway. But if you want to weight in, have at it. Just answer yes or no. Simple.
Man on the Street,
ReplyDeleteI just got a call from Life Source Blood Services. They dig my O Positive Blood and my negative attitude. I think I'll bike downtown and visit their donor center. Better than wasting my time here. Perhaps my donation will help a shooting victim survive. Wouldn't that be "ironic".
Quick question and I expect no answer. In other words "rhetorical".
Cops get a tip that a group of 35 green colored kids are walking down Fullerton near Southport and one of them has an Uzi in his possession. It's a good tip from a good source. He plans to use this Uzi to shoot a rival for the affections of his shamrock toned girlfriend. Should the cops stop and pat down every kid? Isn't that unfair to the 34 kids who aren't carrying an Uzi? Yea it is unfair. It sucks in fact. It sucks less than being shot up or killed, yet it strikes me as the lesser of two evils.
What should the cops do?
As for that I'm finished with this thread. So have at me. My blood pressure is rising and that may forestall my blood donation.
So you've answered my question: they should suck it up and take it for the greater good of the community. Thanks for answering.
ReplyDeleteLife Source blood donation. They have a shortage of group O and RH negative blood. Perhaps instead of pissing each other off those of us capable should donate. Click the link for locations.
ReplyDeleteirishpirate,
ReplyDeletei have no problem with you defending yourself, but your brining it up in a bragging/bravado type way on this blog is interesting.
if a young male acts/brags that way you might call it thuggish but if you act in such a way (communicating it over a blog at that, where you don't have to deal with the consequences) it's okay and actually something that you might be using to fuel a certain image of yourself.
i don't see your posturing ("If that happens to me and I catch the individuals it won't be pretty." and "That's my values. You can turn the other cheek. I don't. In fact if it had been caught on camera I might get sued for excessive use of civilian force for tossing one kid about 6 or 7 feet when I picked him up by his pants.") as being that different than many kids i've known who talk in such ways to express anger because they don't know other healthier ways to express it.
all i'm saying is that that double standard shouldn't exist and that many of the values we support in our culture (emphasis of accumulation of private property, men wanting to show how tough they are, use of force to get what we want) are quite similar to the values that you criticize gang members for exhibiting.
sadly, i'm not surprised that your argument has deteriorated to your talking about threats and your physical prowess.
Man on the street...
ReplyDeleteI have a question for you. If police receive a credible tip that a group of youths are walking down the street with a gun, towards another group of youths with a gun a few blocks away, and those groups happen to be minorities, should the cops NOT stop these groups and search each and every one of them until the guns are located to stop someone from being killed? Or should the cops just avoid this at all costs, because it might appear to be racial profiling and police brutality?
You see, this is already happening in the 46th Ward, and beyond. The de-policing that is being discussed right now has just as much to do with the police fear of being persecuted as a racist or engaging in police brutality. Many police aren't able to to do their jobs effectively because some Aldermen politically tie their hands behind their back.
The result? We have seen an increase in drug and crime activity over last summer. Is this better for humanity overall?
Another question...
Where is the public outcry from the African American and Hispanic community against gangs? They are certainly the groups that suffer the most from the actions of these gangs. Why is there not a more public effort by leaders in these communities to denounce gang activity and efforts within these communities, by parents, politicians, leaders and schools to explain to these children, when they are young... that if they engage in this kind of behavior, all they are doing is feeding in to the stereotype that minorities are dangerous criminals and are to be feared?
My boss from a previous job, who is black, once commented to me, that every time she reads or hears about a shooting, murder, robbery that makes the news, she prays that it wasn't done by a black person. Why? Because it feeds the beast of racism. It gives ignorant white people the opportunity to say "See? Look, ANOTHER murder, ANOTHER rape, by a minority!" This of course is not fair, and wrong because not every minority is a dangerous criminal, just like not all white people are rich, racist yuppies who have everything handed to them.
I know for a fact (because I've been told this by more than a few black people I've engaged in this conversation) that when white people band together and march against crime and gangs, and drugs... it is perceived by many minorities to be 'racist'. Why is that? Don't we all, as human beings at our base have the same values in life? Don't we all just want a decent place to live, a job that pays a fair wage, healthcare, food on the table for our family, a safe neighborhood for our kids to play in and good schools so they have a shot in life?
So where is the leadership in the minority communities speaking up against the violence that is destroying their neighborhoods, their children, their lives and the very perception of how other races view them? I have heard Bill Cosby... and he speaks the truth. But why is he largely dismissed for his views? Why don't famous minorities like actors, athletes and musicians - ROLE MODELS for many of these children growing up in poor 'ghetto' neighborhoods - take a leadership role and speak out publicly and often against gangs and a life of crime? Why do so many rappers instead, do the exact opposite and glorify this kind of life in their music, making it sound like those who do so are 'hard, and tough and rich' like this is a life to emulate?
I just don't understand, and seriously want someone to explain this to me, legitamately WHY this is the state of affairs these days? WHY is it racist for white people to be against gangs, drugs and crime? WHY isn't there more push back from the minority communities that suffer the most because of the action of these gangs, drug dealers, etc.? Is it simply fear? If so, how many 5 year-olds have to get shot in the head while riding their bike before a community says enough is enough, and takes matter into their OWN hands instead of just demanding the government and police do more? Because when the government and police DO do more, those same police and government are racist and egaging in police brutality. Damned if they do... damned if they don't.
I'm at a loss here folks... I'm not trying to provoke any kind of heated debate, I truly want to understand why this appears to be the case these days? Because I feel when I attend CAPS, or block club meetings, or volunteer that sometimes I'm pushing against a brick wall.
Ron,
ReplyDeleteI said I wouldn't respond on this thread and beyond this I don't intend to. Although "this" will likely be "long".
I live in the real world. I wish I lived in the world that you would like to see. I wish I lived in the world the Berrigan brothers would have liked to see. I don't. You don't.
You're never going to see that world. It can't exist. It would mean fundamentally changing human nature. You can portray me as arrogant, I'm certainly guilty of that, but my level of arrogance and bravado pales in comparison to you, who not only wants to change society, but is willing to go to jail to do it. There is something admirable in that. There is also more than a bit of "tilting at windmills" in that.
This board is supposedly about Uptown. If some group of teenagers "goons" an older disabled guy, as happened here recently, I really don't want to worry about how consumerist culture may have contributed to that. I want them arrested and punished. You could pray with them. Just don't turn your back.
Unlike you I don't see the light. I don't see ALL the answers. I'm not a true believer. I haven't drank the sweet Kool Aid of total righteousness and total arrogance. I'm not young enough or stupid enough to believe I have all the answers.
You do some admirable things. I wonder if tutoring and working with the homeless done by millions would not affect more real change than "tilting at windmills".
Oh well..........somewhere Dorothy Day is smiling down upon you and likely frowning at me.
I have a question for you. If police receive a credible tip that a group of youths are walking down the street with a gun, towards another group of youths with a gun a few blocks away, and those groups happen to be minorities, should the cops NOT stop these groups and search each and every one of them until the guns are located to stop someone from being killed? Or should the cops just avoid this at all costs, because it might appear to be racial profiling and police brutality?
ReplyDeleteWe aren't talking about whether or not the police should stop people who might be suspects. They should if it means preventing crime. What we're talking about (or attempting talk about) is this:
I know young people of color get harassed by the cops constantly. I know it has to suck. I suspect that while the harassment causes distrust it also saves lives.
So I asked (since irishpirate acknowledged that young people of color get "harassed" - their word- by the cops constantly, but it saves lives) does this mean that they should just suck up their complaints of harassment for the greater good of the community.
Nowhere in my questioning did I say the cops SHOULDN'T stop suspects on the street. If I did say that, show me. I don't need hypothetical scenarios about green-skinned people, etc. I just asked one question: Should these people of color that irishpirate admits are harassed keep their mouth shut about it for the greater good of the community?
It's not that hard. It's just a question.
Where is the public outcry from the African American and Hispanic community against gangs?
ReplyDeleteWhere???
It's here...
Story 1
...and here...
Story 2
...and here...
Story 3
...and here...
Story 3
...and here...
Story 4
...and here...
Blair
...and even here...
Story 5
There are TONS of protests in the city all the time in "minority" communities to try to end gang violence. They're on the news and in the papers constantly, although mostly on slow weekends. Only someone with selective vision wouldn't make note of this.
MOTS,
ReplyDeletewhy not tell us your opinion on the questin you asked?
Sorry, I shouldn't pick your post apart here, and I know this is a blog that is supposed to focus specificaly on Uptown and not the "grand scheme", but some of the "observations" seem connected to some of the problems.
ReplyDelete"The de-policing that is being discussed right now has just as much to do with the police fear of being persecuted as a racist or engaging in police brutality."
The depolicing has nothing to do with cops being accused of racism. They couldnt' care less about that (and if you want proof, read the blog "Second City Cop"). It has to do with cops feeling that the city doesn't have their back when they get SUED for alleged brutality.
Where is the public outcry from the African American and Hispanic community against gangs?
Already answered this. YOu need to look around you more.
My boss from a previous job, who is black, once commented to me, that every time she reads or hears about a shooting, murder, robbery that makes the news, she prays that it wasn't done by a black person.
Sounds like a personal problem of hers. Me, I don't base my personal self-image on the actions of others. I couldn't give a flying ... Wallenda what someone thinks of me if they're basing it on something that happened 100 miles away from where I am. That would mean I'm placing value on the opinion of an idiot. Minorities aren't the Borg. If you want to look at one minority and see the entire race, nothing anyone can do about that but you.
I know for a fact ...that when white people band together and march against crime and gangs, and drugs... it is perceived by many minorities to be 'racist'.
Where are these marches taking place in the city? Any links I can read? Are these marches that DON'T involve minorities as well? And who has called these alleged marches "racist"? Or is this just your personal perception?
I have heard Bill Cosby... and he speaks the truth. But why is he largely dismissed for his views?
Largely dismissed by whom? Again, if you have proof of this, direct me to it.
WHY is it racist for white people to be against gangs, drugs and crime?
Who said this? Once again, if you have real proof that being anti-gang, anti-drug and anti-crime is considered "racist", share it.
If so, how many 5 year-olds have to get shot in the head while riding their bike before a community says enough is enough, and takes matter into their OWN hands instead of just demanding the government and police do more?
Aren't YOU a member of this community? Can't YOU say enough is enough? Or is it "minorities take care of minorities and white take care of whites" in your opinion?
Why do so many rappers instead, do the exact opposite and glorify this kind of life in their music, making it sound like those who do so are 'hard, and tough and rich' like this is a life to emulate?
God, not the rap argument again... They promote that life because it sells and record companies, most of which are NOT run by minorities, are making big profits off of it.
BTW, the phrase "party like a rock star" doesn't mean going to church and attending PTA meeting.
Sorry for hijacking this blog and this entry. I know it has nothing to do with Uptown (or maybe it does in some larger sense). But the I can't put half of the stuff I want to in this response.
Man on the Street...
ReplyDeleteCalm down... I never wrote that you claimed police shouldn't stop suspects. I was asking you your opinion on that subject, and you responded. Thank you...
To answer your question, if anyone is harrassed, roughed up, attacked, etc. by the police, regardless of their color and if they weren't provoking the police (as in screaming Eff You PIG, or other derogatory comments) and are just minding their own biz... YES they SHOULD be pissed, and SHOULD speak out against it.
As far as my 'selective vision' If you read my post, I was not referring to just the people in these communities who have staged protests against the gangs and violence. I of course, have seen these on the news, and read about it in the paper.
I am specifically asking about LEADERS, people who do have the political or public clout to truly make a difference. Why don't we see more of it?
MOTS,
ReplyDeletewhy not tell us your opinion on the questin you asked?
Wow, throwing it back instead of simply answering it. Great. I guess, then, that that's my answer.
My opinion is that they shouldn't suck it up and take it "for the good of the community". Look, the police should do what they have to do (search REAL suspects, etc.). Hey, I'm a "fan" of the cops. If I get robbed, who am I gonna call, a librarian? But randomly stopping people because they fit maybe one criteria of the suspect's profile? Sorry, no. Look, I've been stopped and frisked on the street several times, the last time across the street from the Green Mill. Cop car pulls up, two cops get out. Immediately start patting me down, asking me questions, etc. And just as suddenly walked off. No, in the grand scheme of things, it's was no big deal and maybe it helped catch the real guy they were looking for. But as a guy who graduated college, was a newspaper reporter in this town for more than 10 years, and at that time worked for the city (just like them!), yeah, it pissed off that because I met one or two of their criteria (well, he was a black guy and he was in the area) I was now a suspect. And no, I don't blame society. And no, I'm harbor no lingering resentment.
So since you're asking, no, no one, white or black or whatever, shouldn't just take it for the good of the community. If protesting it makes cops work a little harder instead of taking the easy route to crime prevention, become better policemen, better observers and better at their job, then great. THAT is for "the good of the community".
Now, how about you?
I am specifically asking about LEADERS, people who do have the political or public clout to truly make a difference. Why don't we see more of it?
ReplyDeleteSee, you're barking up the wrong tree with me when it comes to discussing "leaders". There are no "leaders" of the Latino or black community just as I suspect there are no "leaders" of the white community (or are there? You tell me). That's a term made up by the media as a handy way of identifying activists, organizers, etc. and unfortunately adopted by some. Unless there was a referendom or something I missed, most are self-appointed.
As for "people who have the political clout to truly make a difference", I know of only one who has that kind of power. Guy named Daley. And last I looked, he wasn't a minority.
And no reason to suggest I calm down. Frustrated at misinformation, perhaps, but definitely calm.
To the rest of the folks here, again, sorry for hijacking this blog. I'll try to stop.
MOTS...
ReplyDeleteThanks for your feedback. I appreciate it. I wasn't trying to upset anyone with my post, albeit it is a sensitive topic.
No, I don't have hard core statistics or stories to share with you. This is my personal experience, conversations I've had with both white people and black people. Of course, everyone's opinion varied on these topics, regardless of their race.
An example of a "march" would be the one that was held in front of Shiller's office in June. More than one person commented on UU about a 'bunch of white people' marching, etc, the tone wasn't supportive.
And of course I say, 'enough is enough.' and I am part of the community, that is why I participated in that march after the Truman student was killed and why I go to CAPS and block club meetings when I can.
The Bill Cosby thing, I read a story about the opposition he faces from minority communities - it was posted in the Trib a few months ago. I think Eric Zorn did an editorial about it, and the comments board on that was eye-opening to say the least.
We come from two different sides of the perspective, so obviously our view of it is going to be different on this. I appreciate your feedback and your view point on this.
To answer your question, if anyone is harrassed, roughed up, attacked, etc. by the police, regardless of their color and if they weren't provoking the police (as in screaming Eff You PIG, or other derogatory comments) and are just minding their own biz... YES they SHOULD be pissed, and SHOULD speak out against it.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I meant to thank you for answering the question. You're the only one so far. Thanks.
MOTS -
ReplyDeleteNo need to apologize for monopolizing the blog. It's my fault for bringing it up in the first place. I wasn't intending to upset anyone or open pandora's box.
I agree that being randomly pat down by a cop sucks and isn't right. I've never had that happen to me, so I can't relate to that. I would hope that the police had a viable reason for doing so, but from what I've heard, this is common. It shouldn't be.
I really do appreciate your feedback and viewpoint on these subjects. I am naive in this area and can only speak from my experience, but I was legitimately looking for another point of view so I can understand these issues better. I didn't mean to offend you, or others reading this. So I apologize. I probably shouldn't of used UU to launch this topic. The 'gang' issue got me going.
MOTS,
ReplyDeleteI've only been patted down by the po po one time. Long ago when I was a teenager. I think I met their profile of being a teenager. I'm sure it happens to black and hispanic males much more frequently depending on where they live. I was pissed off about it.
I would compare it in some neighborhoods as something similar to being hassled at the airport by security. The violence in some neighborhoods is so out of hand that it may be justified. It's a question of what's more important. Individual rights or the life of someone.
Cops in some suburb recently basically put traffic blocks at a high crime apartment complex and stopped everyone. Was it justified? It seemed opinion in the complex was divided.
Is it justified to have metal detectors at many public schools?
Do the ends justify the means?
Coke or Pepsi?
Ginger or MaryAnn?
Cubs or Sox?
What we could all hope for, but never see, is an end to the stupid violence.
Oh well.....
It's my fault for bringing it up in the first place.
ReplyDeleteFarrell: Nope, don't apologize for nuthin'. it's never anyone's fault for saying what they think. How else will figure out where the problem may lie. Keep bringing it up. I may seem a bit cantankerous when I write; that's just my old journalistic instincts coming out. At the end of the day, I'm just another guy spouting off on a blog. My opinion is no more valid than anyone elses.
besides, I know where you're coming from and trust me, I didn't see any maliciousness in your words. Sorry if I made it seem that way.
Do the ends justify the means?
ReplyDeleteah, that's the question. But I'm glad you brought up the issue in the first place. I didn't mean for it to become a full blown racial/brutality/stereotyping debate. Just was wondering what people thought.
And yeah, teens get hasseled a lot by the cops. ALL teens. But it becomes something different when you've paid your dues as an adult and you're treated line a common criminal. That's why I say while I appreciate and respect the cops, just stopping some random guy because he minimally fits the description?... there's got to be a better way.
Oh, and to answer your other questions: Coke, Mary Ann and White Sox.
:)
An example of a "march" would be the one that was held in front of Shiller's office in June. More than one person commented on UU about a 'bunch of white people' marching, etc, the tone wasn't supportive.
ReplyDeleteIf few blacks were at an anti crime march, why in blazes would that come across as something negative about white people? They were the ones marching.
I'm personally delighted that anyone makes a stand against any type of crime. I really don't care what the color of their skin happens to be.