We have to look on the bright side often times in Uptown. A foot + of snow can be a major headache, but it is a great deterrent to the illegal peddlers who set up shop in front of the world famous currency exchange at Broadway and Wilson. We are sure that "sock man" and "soap lady" will be back again once the weather improves, but in the meantime, residents can enjoy relatively clear sidewalks. We would also like to remind residents that YOU must get a permit to have a yard sale and are subject to a fine, but evidently this is not enforced on this corner as most of these peddlers operate without a license, or simply pass one license around to whomever is peddling that day. Someone is protecting them from being ticketed. On a related note, we find it interesting that some of the most blighted businesses and buildings in Uptown are owned by individuals that live far, far away.
Tuesday, January 13, 2009
At Least One Good Thing About Winter
We have to look on the bright side often times in Uptown. A foot + of snow can be a major headache, but it is a great deterrent to the illegal peddlers who set up shop in front of the world famous currency exchange at Broadway and Wilson. We are sure that "sock man" and "soap lady" will be back again once the weather improves, but in the meantime, residents can enjoy relatively clear sidewalks. We would also like to remind residents that YOU must get a permit to have a yard sale and are subject to a fine, but evidently this is not enforced on this corner as most of these peddlers operate without a license, or simply pass one license around to whomever is peddling that day. Someone is protecting them from being ticketed. On a related note, we find it interesting that some of the most blighted businesses and buildings in Uptown are owned by individuals that live far, far away.
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That's terrible reporting, Uptown Update. You know you're in the wrong with this post. There's other good things about the winter!
ReplyDeleteLike, you can't smell the urine in alleys in the winter. You can see it, but that's better than smelling it...and you can avoid stepping on it!
Speaking of smells...you also don't have to get a whiff of hot dumpster in the winter. That's another advantage of the bitter cold.
Ok, what's wrong with people selling or "peddling" socks or soap? They're not stealing (ok, as far as I know) and no one is forcing anything on anybody. Some people purchase from them because the prices of these very basic items in the stores may be more than what they can afford--or hey, they're trying to get a good deal.I'm sure this sort of below-the-radar commerce, as long as it does not involve pushing harmful "merchandise," fills a little niche market that many of us probably don't occupy. I don't want to get all deep or anything, but I don't see the huge deal. These peddlers are all over the place, of course, not just Uptown, and they just don't seem to ruin my day. I guess to me they're just a part of the urban landscape. Some of us get our discount socks from Marshall's, other get them from the peddler (tax-free) on Wilson and Broadway.
ReplyDeleteAnd what's with the subtle swipe at the currency exchange? Is that a "blighted business"? If that's not what you meant, I'm interested to know what you mean when you say "blighted business"?
"Ok, what's wrong with people selling or "peddling" socks or soap? They're not stealing (ok, as far as I know) and no one is forcing anything on anybody."
ReplyDeleteHow about that all businesses are required by law to be licensed. Neighborhoodlady do you have disregard for all law or only the law that affects the underprivileged?
I am ok, if you want anarchy, just be fair about it. Let all business on Wilson then pay no taxes, get no inspections, pay no rent, disregard law, & block public walk ways.
How do you think we pay for all those social programs your always touting? How does all that money get on those link cards to buy the cheetos? How do the teachers get paid at those free public schools? So to answer your post..YES THEY ARE STEALING, THEY ARE STEALING FROM ALL OF US.
Taxes my dear. Taxes.
CD, you must know something about Cheetos and Doritos I don't know, as you and some of your fellow commenters reference it often when referring to the poor.
ReplyDeleteAnd get a grip, CD--$ 1 socks = anarchy? Really?? I love law and order and I apply and follow the law on the regular. But I also don't loose my mind and concoct vast left-wing conspiracies out of a guy or girl being able to buy some inexpensive socks or soap.
Oh, and what social programs am I always touting? I think you're getting your alleged left wing-nuts confused.
Oh, and UU, I'm sure you must be exaggerating a bit--hopefully you've found a few other things about winter in Uptown to appreciate, especially when it's freshly snowing and things slow down a bit. Or maybe I'm just an unapologetically romantic hellhole-city girl...
ReplyDeleteNeighborlady - are you for equality? You're basically saying that people should be treated differently and different laws should apply to different people. That's not what I consider fairness or justice.
ReplyDeleteAre you a police officer, lawyer or judge, neighborlady? I certainly hope not - I don't appreciate your inequitable interpretation of the law.
Well 'neighborlady', since this isn't downtown Calcutta, there are laws against selling obviously unregulated, and origin-unknown goods on a street corner.
ReplyDeleteI doubt these vendors, are submitting sales taxes on the 'transactions'? Is the 'soap & shampoo' lady's goods authentic? I doubt the manufacturer would want the items peddled this way. Safety?
Come on.
I think it's this sort of attitude, that keeps a lot of uptown's problems, going full throttle.
At least innocent bystanders aren't getting shot in the back and rushed to the hospital at that corner right now, as they were when it was warmer.
ReplyDeleteI'm with neighborlady, there are more good things about winter than the lack of unlicensed businesses selling what could very well be stolen goods.
Marathonman, I am for equality, as well as pragmaticism, common-sense and prioritization of issues which is why i tend to look at facts for what they are and not concoct these weird conspiracy theories based on the sock and soap man. You really think in terms of resources, the cops are going to care equally about the sock guy versus the Meth man? And Calcutta??? Really stretching it.
ReplyDeleteWhen there is a persistent issue that does not change, then the police should address it. It's not going to affect an ongoing drug or other investigation. Resources are not that limited - every time I call 311 or 911 with an issue, I see the police address it. If they address the issue on one or two occasions, then the issue will end.
ReplyDeleteI'll be sure to bring it up at the first CAPS meeting of the Spring. That will be the best thing that I can do to address the issue.
Wow, so a guy earning some money selling socks and soap bothers you that much, so much that it is an "issue"? Of course, that is assuming these folks have no licensing as even UU speculates that "most" don't have a license. Again, all speculation, but, ok, have at 311. Just saying, IMO, there are things that I'd rather worry about than a person being able to purchase inexpensive soap and socks.
ReplyDeleteNeighbor L, actually I made the Calcutta parallel. You're mixing your commentators up. And it's really not a stretch.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I'm always a bit leery of a Blogger that has no profile. Do you sell soap?
Yeah, it does bother me. The sock and soap lady selling their wares in front of the Currency Exchange is the definition of what's wrong with Uptown. They harass pedestrians and make it uncomfortable to walk down the street. Why do you think we can't attract businesses here?
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm sure you're next line of defense will be - if you don't like it, move! You really should work for Shiller, you sound just like her. Let's keep giving handouts to the poor and ignoring laws that should be applied to them.
People are breaking the law and the police are doing nothing about it. They are likely being told to turn a blind eye by Shiller's office. Do you think that this would happen at Lawrence and Broadway? No - because it's in the 48th ward.
We as citizens should stand up and voice our opinion to try to make the neighborhood a better place when we walk down the street. I for one do not want to be harassed like I'm walking down the street in a third world market.
Furthermore, if I want to have a yard sale and I don't have a permit, I'll get a fine. Is that fair? I am tired of being treated inequitably. Maybe I should start putting my hand out more.
SM, I did not say MM made the comment. I generally stated at the end of my comment that the Calcutta analogy (whoever made it) was a stretch. Also, I don't recall if it was you or someone else who raised the "no profile" thing previously on another post, but I did not know that was the criteria for posting a comment. I have no need to make a profile. I only signed on because that was the only way to make comments--so be suspicious all you want. And, nope, no sock selling, though I probably overpay for mine at Marshall's.
ReplyDeleteAnd MM, you can stay or you can move, I really, honestly don't care. If you like it here, despite the sock and soap guy/girl, then by all means stay. I have no desire to run any condo owners or renters out of Uptown. Just putting forth the idea of a little perspective on this issue. But I forget--offering forth a different POV on UU must mean you hate condo owners. Not.
Very well put Marathon M!
ReplyDeleteI don't mind people having low standards for themselves, but it's a stretch for anyone to be critical of Uptown residents who want the laws enforced about peddling.
ReplyDeleteHonestly....
ReplyDeleteI hate winter. This years looks like a repeat of last years. Bitter cold or snow non stop.
Def time to move.
Misplaced Beach Bum
I must say, as an evil condo owner, I am with NL here in a weird twisted way.
ReplyDeleteToo tired address al of the issues, but NL, I understand your point. Those people don't bother me... There are arguments on both side.....
Oh one more thing, third world countries are pretty cool, I always enjoyed walking through those markets, maybe whoever made that comment should try it some time......
Y'all sure are entertaining though...... just whatever you do on this blog, vent as much as you want.... just don't - oh never mind....
Let’s look at this from another perspective if it was such a crime why doesn’t Shiller stop them from peddling there day after day in the summer time isn’t here office right across the street!! Yea! Cause most people don’t commit crimes right across elected officials office unless there in on it ummm some real food to think about right I mean Ms. Davis crosses that street enough to get lunch and here nails done so I think she would report illegal activity right.
ReplyDeleteNow CD I pray God drops you to your knees so you know that government help in time of need is a blessing and not for some one who has had it easy and good to be all judge mental. No what separates us from third world countries mines is the system that we set up for those less fortunate.
What’s great about winter is you can hear the silence of the city smell fresh air scent and see your foot prints for weeks. Winter makes the ugly beautiful and the dirty smell great. Winter also let you see the empty space with out life.
"Now CD I pray God drops you to your knees so you know that government help in time of need is a blessing"
ReplyDeleteWhat? You can't be serious. History shows time after time government involvement has failed. It failed with past welfare creating a society of criminals and illegitimacy and this "bailout" package will feed corporate criminals.
So true compassion is saving someone from themselves, not enabling them to continue destructive behavior.
As far as the peddlers? It is not about if they bother people or not it is about following the rule of law. We don't live by NL's "common sense" laws, some of us have to live by the laws written down by elected officials no matter how much we hate them.
Yes it sucks..but that is the way it is.
I agree with marathonman on this one. There is no way that this type of solicitation would be permitted in Edgewater, Lakeview or countless other neighborhoods. For some reason the police turn a blind eye to this impromptu street market in Uptown, and I'll bet most of us know the reason why.
ReplyDeleteThese people are blocking the public way, and are a general nuisance.
Thank you, MM & CD! You are right on- equality for all, which includes participating in things that many want to avoid, ie paying taxes and filing for permits.
ReplyDeleteNL and her pro-peddling supporters- allowing the peddlers to stand at the corner, IF unlicensed, only encourages negativity to our neighborhood while punishing those that work hard to play fairly.
Besides, selling items at such low prices generally means the peddler acquired them illegally... Yes, the merchandise could be stolen! Bravo!!! You've made your point to encourage more crime in our homes.
How about we kill two birds with one stone?
ReplyDeleteVacant property in the old Uptown Station? All the street walking vendors can incorporate with equal shares per vendor. They pay rent. They pay sales taxes. They have 365 days of potential retail days.
It's all up to them if they want to open the store that day.
This sounds like work the Chamber might do. Anyone seen them lately?
UU has posted about the street vendors before and this is what I had to say then:
ReplyDeleteStreet vendors selling homemade craft items, inexpensive merchandise, small snacks or used magazines and books is a feature of urban neighborhoods across the country. Some people find street vending unsightly or annoying while others are not bothered by it. Some even welcome it as part of authentic urban life. I will say that street vending is a low-barrier-to-entry way for people to earn a buck and I have no problem with it. In addition, some people even say that street vendors can help deter crime because they are "eyes and ears" on the street and, since they spend a lot of time there, they can really sense when something unusual is about to go down.
However like so many things in Uptown this general appreciation for street vendors is taken too far and laws and regulations are not applied fairly. I don't think it would be right to persecute people who try to street vend and Helen Shiller clearly agrees with me on this one. However, the city does require a permit for street vending (seems to me that Shiller ok'd the increased fees for Maxwell street vendors to boot!) and the vendors need to follow the regulations. Making someone follow the rules is not the same as unfairly targeting them---this is a confusion that muddles much thinking in the 46th ward.
The simple facts on this issue are that Helen Shiller does not want street vendors targeted in any way. Since this is Chicago and what the alderman says goes---they follow whatever rules Helen sees fit. If you support street vendors, you are being disingenuous if you try to argue that this is not the case in Uptown. It is not a huge miscarriage of justice but it is certainly not fair especially when you consider the power that the alderman also has to call city inspectors on storefront businesses.
Think about this debate another way. You know how you might fight with your spouse about the dishes when its really about something deeper or more important in your relationship? I think this recurrent street vendor topic is the same thing. Its not really about the vendors but more about fairness and equality in Uptown.
Helen has made her stances clear and it would do us all well if we could acknowledge them for what they are and then discuss whether we agree or disagree. It's a legitimate argument to say "I think you should bend the rules to help the little guy" but to be fair then you've also got to acknowledge you can be ok with supra-legal powers for local elected officials and sporadic (and even capricious) enforcement of laws if the ends are justified.
No what separates us from third world countries mines is the system that we set up for those less fortunate.
ReplyDeleteWhat separates us from third world countries is property rights and fewer regulations on time transfer. We have laws that define property ownership and regulations to ensure that said property can be valued independent of the participating parties yet still subject to subjective valuation.
Peddlers on the street, absent a license, that do not collect sales taxes, that do not share in the duties levied by government in the form of property taxes, are a detrimental effect on merchants that do participate in the system, do follow code, do pay taxes, and are responsible to their peer property owners in the geographical proximity.
I think the street peddlers can be shown doors they can open whereas they may establish a bricks and mortar location to market their wares. Usually a chamber of commerce with participation from local elected officials will cooperate and formulate plans to see demand, see supply, and find a proper medium to where both constructs can effectively be served by the community.
Remember, a small business incubator is part of the WY plan so... I am sure this problem will all be taken care of when Wilson Yard is built and Helen's allows these street peddlers to set up shop in the new retail space.
ReplyDeleteJust to put NL into perspective for a minute, she made comments at a fall '08 CAPS meeting in FAVOR of folks deficating and urinating in public parks and alleys. "Some people don't have any other options."
ReplyDeleteSo, yeah. Tax evasion = good. Poo = good. This is the neighborhood NL want's to live in.
Just to clarify, I am not opposed to vending when people are trying to make an HONEST living.
ReplyDeleteNo public deficating!!
NL - it's called a Flea Market, go find one.
ReplyDeleteRight On CD.
I wonder if they were selling lattes and rainbow flags if the reaction would be the same.
ReplyDeleteClassic, ihatemondays. Way to completely ignore the more salient points that were made on this thread.
ReplyDeleteYep. You nailed it. Yuppies & guppies would have no problem with street vendors if they spread out lattes and rainbow flags on sheets on Wilson Avenue. Maybe I will do that this summer. But I am also going to sell the collected works of Oscar Wilde. Try and stop me.
Peddlers on the street, absent a license, that do not collect sales taxes, that do not share in the duties levied by government in the form of property taxes, are a detrimental effect on merchants that do participate in the system, do follow code, do pay taxes, and are responsible to their peer property owners in the geographical proximity.
ReplyDeleteThank GOD they got rid of Maxwell Street.
IHM would have us believe that we're all equal, but some people are more equal than others. Maybe it's the unwavering belief that rules don't apply to them that keeps them "down on their luck."
ReplyDeleteActually holy moley my "luck" is pretty good that's why I don't piss & and moan on UU about others who's "luck" isn't. So who are the "them" you're referring to?
ReplyDeletedoes anyone know yeahcanihelpu, kick him off of uu
ReplyDeleteIm curious about how we do we actually get rid of these peddlers if the police wont do anything? anyone?
ReplyDeleteIf u actually purchase products from street vendors then move to the southside, we r trying to clean up uptown. Buyint this garbage is just giving them a reason to stick around
ReplyDeleteNas> there are numerous police reports, complaints and arrests. If u would like i can post them for u. In fact last year summer 08 153 complaints , 3 comprehensive police investigations, and 16 arrests have been associated with this specific illegal peddling scam. So what do u say about that?
ReplyDeleteNas just got OWNED!!!!
ReplyDeleteIm curious about how we do we actually get rid of these peddlers if the police wont do anything? anyone?
ReplyDeleteWalk up to them and tell them to move.
MOTS...
ReplyDeleteThe last three postings are from a troll. Same person just trying to be disruptive.
Immature at that. It is a sad day when the trolls make me long for the days of Billy Joe.
IHM, I don't believe in "luck". I find that people who do believe in luck either tend to be victims who curse the world for their bad luck or they are the enablers who perpetuate the victimization by their embracement of low standards. Uptown can still be a diverse neighborhood without the low standards. Save your pity and do everyone a favor.
ReplyDeleteOk, there were so many over-the-top responses here that I'm not going to point out anything in particular except one--the gent who said I was some woman at a CAPS meeting who was pro-public defecating and urination does not know what he's talking about. No such thing happened--wasn't at a meeting and had I been, would never had said anything so moronic. I've no idea how my not seeing the "evil" in the soap/sock guy equate to my being in favor of using the street as a toilet, but I'm sure somebody will figure out how to draw that line....
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm used to seeing a few peddlers here and there (though not many at all in Uptown) so that I do not view these folks as hindering the development of a livable urban community. Apparently, you do. Hey, every now and then, I just put out a different POV, though it becomes ridiculous when some of you begin accusing me of being anti-equality, pro-anarchy and low expectations, anti-condo people because I am not feeling the pain of the anti-sock and soap peddler contingent. It's just a difference of opinion, not an indictment of those who disagree with me.
As far as prioritizing people in law enforcement and the legal field do it all the time. When the State plea bargains and cuts a deal, some pragmatic choices are being made about who it's worth pouring prosecutorial resources into. But anyway, no out-of-Uptown analogies, right--unless of course it's to compare Uptown to Calcutta.
You know, I did not know there was so much about Uptown to hate and so little about it to appreciate until I came to this site. Oh well.
And one question I feel ws raised by the post that was never addressed--what is a "blighted" business?
ReplyDeleteneighborlady said...
ReplyDeleteYou know, I did not know there was so much about Uptown to hate and so little about it to appreciate until I came to this site. Oh well.
Same here, and after almost 11 years of owning in Uptown. But then, I knew the neighborhood well before I bought here. Apparently, a lot of the unfortunate posters here didn't tour anything but the condo they bought.
That is quite the pity party NL. But rather than the guilt trip why not take the time to read the many posts that overwhelmingly disagree with your train of thought, and maybe reevaluate your opinion.
ReplyDeleteYour thoughts are always welcome.
The main difference between you and I is perception. I choose to celebrate the people who try to live life the right way. You choose to make excuses for the people who don't.
CD, I am not having a pity party. Don't give yourself or your fellow posters--or UU for that matter--that much credit for my feelings. I was being more ironic than sad. You might want to try to stop making the big leaps of logic concerning my POV. I don't feel this passionate hatred or disdain for these peddlers that some of you do. I am not opposed to people doing things the "right" way--please come off the high horse for a moment and recognize that a person can understand a different perspective on issue--such as the peddler--without being against people who do things the "right" way. I do things the "right" way CD and I support others who do so. But in the grand scheme of my urban living I personally am not as affronted by peddlers and those who may purchase from them (whether from true need or just the novelty of getting a deal), as I am by other crushing urban issues that have more recently emerged in my community.
ReplyDeleteKenny, are you saying low standards for Uptown are okay? No one should have to research whether or not a neighborhood is one where the laws are enforced. I pay taxes and that should be an expectation of every renter or owner who lives here.
ReplyDeleteI think Chip nailed it. Diversity is great as long as we celebrate those people who want to live as good neighbors in the community. Inappropriate behavior should not be excused or enabled.
Out of curiousity, when you see the young men playing the white buckets downtown during the tourist season (often probably without a license), do you call 311 and kick their buckets--or quiz them on their licenses? Do you stop tourists from throwing a little cash their way because those kids may not be doing things the right way like the street performers who do have licenses? I know it's not Uptown, but to me, personally, the peddlers are on that level to me. Somewhat annoying at times, but pretty much harmless.
ReplyDeleteholy moley said...
ReplyDeleteKenny, are you saying low standards for Uptown are okay? No one should have to research whether or not a neighborhood is one where the laws are enforced.
Give me a break. It's the constant whining and nitpicking about everything that isn't absolutely perfect about their urban experience in Uptown, of all neighborhoods, that has been fighting gentrification for more than a generation. Some people seem so surprised, I sometimes wonder if they bought their condo, sight unseen, from a magazine ad, despite half the ad missing, having been torn out - the part describing the 6,000 units of subsidized housing and plethora of social services.
Location, location, location.
hhmmmm "nitpicking about things that aren't exactly perfect in uptown" ?
ReplyDeleteYou mean little nuisances like, selling questionable goods without a permit or paying sales tax, tagging, random gang violence....oh, and an alderman who doesn't do the job she's payed to do.
But I don't want to 'nitpick'
You hit the nail on the head Kenny. These are the people who thought they found a gold mine here in Uptown and now that they can't peddle their overpriced units to others they complain about everything under the sun. Neighborlady don't take the assumptions about you to heart, if you don't follow the pack on UU then you're assumed to be someone you may not be.
ReplyDeleteI guess no one is buying my "dirty dishes" analogy that the passions behind this discussion aren't really coming from people's feelings about street vendors.
ReplyDeleteC'mon Uptown. Cut the crap. People who are marginalized and people who "serve" marginalized people are given special treatment from comrade Shiller. She doesn't hide it so why do some people dance around this plain fact? Mainstream middle class types (i.e., those who represent the gentrification that she has been "fighting" against for a generation--thanks Kenny) are excluded. It is what it is. Those who feel excluded and who find hypocrisy in this system now want to talk about it. Sometimes the discussion takes the form of big important issues and sometimes it rears its ugly head in the form of discussions about white t-shirts or street vendors.
I love Uptown but I am seriously at my wits end with how the local political establishment here can't seem to get it through their thick heads that if you insult, lie to and attempt to silence a group of people that they will eventually start to do something about it. I mean really. Really! Why is it so surprising to any of you that people want their voices heard? All people? Even if what they have to say is ill-informed, wrong or even going to hurt others?
Now is the time to start listening to and dealing with these new voices. Until you do, this community will not heal. I had always hoped that was the goal but lately I am pretty convinced that its a zero sum game. What a terrible waste.
Gang violence and the illegal drug trade is not a "little nuisance" The sock/soap man is a "little nuisance"--unless, of course, he's putting the soap in the sock and clocking people with it.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, though, Kenny does raise a valid point--many of these urban issues were here for awhile. Many of these people and "issues" were already here. You kind of moved in on their turf--AND before you get excited, I'm not saying you had no right to move here or that you should leave.
Just saying, those peddlers could just as easily see you as encroaching on them.
Maybe people were sold on the promise that Uptown would be "cleaned up" soon and it's just not happening as quickly or in the way some people hoped. For the record, hey, if I paid a lot for a condo based on the belief that Uptown would be Lincoln Park with just a little bit of grit on the side real soon, I'd be irritated. Not saying that's where all of you are coming from, but I suspect that's the situation for more than a few of you.
Sassy, what you suggest could easily be reversed and happens often when communities see an influx of "newness" that may threaten the status quo. As you have a right to speak up if you feel you are not being listened to, people who were here possibly before you arrived may also feel compelled to dig in their heels and assert their right to be here. It is ironic that your complaint is that the marginalized here have a strong voice and staunch representation. That is not the case in most places and the difference is, Uptown was an "eyes wide open" sort of place. If you know that coming in the "marginalized" had a "grip" on this place, how do you convince more people--those who've been here the longest, who don't have much of a voice anywhere else but here--to have some common ground with you? That's something of a rhetorical question because I'm not particularly sure what the answer is. History has shown, though, that typically, the marginalized (such as the peddlers trying to make a buck) do eventually get pushed out and the "silenced" middle and upper-middle classes do emerge victorious (such as in Lincoln Park).
IHM, thanks. I caught on quickly that if you don't agree, you're assumed by some (not all) to be the enemy. I guess I'm a sucker for a good debate.
ReplyDeleteIf you know that coming in the "marginalized" had a "grip" on this place, how do you convince more people--those who've been here the longest, who don't have much of a voice anywhere else but here--to have some common ground with you?
ReplyDeleteIMHO it is not really the people who may have been here longer (although I do somewhat dispute who was here first because the area has long been transitory. But I digress...) I feel I have a lot in common with Uptowners across the spectrum. I want this to be a safe place for people of all walks of life to call home. Homeless shelters? Fine in my back yard. Institutions serving people with HIV? Mental illnesses? Fine in my back yard. Immigrant societies and stores serving these communities? Fine in my back yard. Halfway houses? Fine in my back yard. I could go on but I'll bet you get my point.
Who I disagree with bitterly are people who defend Uptown's version of da Chicago Way. It's just wrong and it makes me want to scream-scream-scream! Overcompensating here will neither make up for the wrongs of the world nor will it cause people to open their eyes to injustice and their own privilege. I think the Uptown experiment has sufficiently proven that. When you strip it all down I think that people like ihatemondays have profound lack of faith in human beings and their capacity to learn and love. You just can't get there when you see a certain type of person as the enemy or an invading force or morally inferior in some way. So sad. That kind of thinking is what I wish I had more fully understood about this place years ago.
Wow.
ReplyDeleteSo interesting.
*That is quite the pity party NL. But rather than the guilt trip why not take the time to read the many posts that overwhelmingly disagree with your train of thought, and maybe reevaluate your opinion.*
CD, though I like your posts, I don't think NL should abandon her position based on the posts of this blog. NL, you have a very reasonable argument that I find refreshing.
Kenney,
I also became very familiar with this neighborhood before I bought a place. I lived here for years. I knew about the subsidized housing. I think that that are many people (People who do not obsessively post on this site) that had little problem with the many subsidized housing projects in the area. Our real problem is that there should be no more allowed because our neighborhood is overloaded with it. It is just not fair for our neighborhood to bear the burden of more subsidized/public housing. That is why I am anti-Wilson Yard. Kenney, there is a better solution than Wilson Yard to supply affordable housing.... but that is a tangent......
I would like to make a further comment about this blog. I hope I don't get deleted for this.)
There is no doubt in my mind that the Alderman Shiller has an agenda. She uses propaganda against the evil condo owners to rally her supporters. However, most of the posters on this blog use the same tactic. They go to the extreme to counter-act the effect.
UU is very snarky. The pro-UU posters are very snarky. Any post that remotely opposes the UU position is either attacked or deleted. It is also very difficult to follow the blog sometimes, because people's comments are often deleted, even though others have referred to the deleted posts. SoI have no opprtunity to read the deleted posts to make a determination of what the issue is. I end up with a bunch of CD's rants and he sounds non-sensical because I cannot read what he is responding to.
Uptown Updater, I am just trying to make a constructive comment here.
Stop the anger!
Please excuse all type-o's and grammer erros.....
Oh by the way NL, you points are well taken and reasonable.
ReplyDeleteI think if you circle back, and look past all the speeches, the fundamental conclusions, arrived at by the initial post, are true:
ReplyDelete-peddling un-regulated, un-taxed, un-licensed goods on a street corner is not legal.
"Maybe people were sold on the promise that Uptown would be "cleaned up" soon and it's just not happening as quickly or in the way some people hoped." NL
ReplyDeleteLet's say every single condo owner moved here with that idea. So what? It should be cleaned up. It's a pity that poor people aren't deserving of a cleaned up community. Sounds rather classist to me, NL.
Wow Sassy I'm so impressed you can psychologize me through UU. I think this is but one of the many ways UU serves the community. You should expand your base of operations from UU to the entire community.
ReplyDeleteThanks Jason.
ReplyDeleteSassy said: "Who I disagree with bitterly are people who defend Uptown's version of da Chicago Way. It's just wrong and it makes me want to scream-scream-scream! Overcompensating here will neither make up for the wrongs of the world nor will it cause people to open their eyes to injustice and their own privilege. I think the Uptown experiment has sufficiently proven that."
Sassy, I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean here. First, while Uptown does have its people who float in and out of the neighborhood, it does indeed have many people who've been here for years (decades even) and who came here because it offered a relatively safer urban environment--and some of those people have felt that a person like Shiller is on their side (rightly or wrongly). Some, frankly, could care less about ward politics.
One of the things that always irritated me was that Uptown was portrayed as nothing more than a transient place with people who have no roots here. I do not say that this is your characterization, Sassy, but rather that it is a prevalent and annoyingly one-dimensional portrayal of Uptown.
Further, what I did not quite understand was you calling Uptown an "experiment." I think that does somewhat slight the experience and stake of those who have lived here for quite some time and who do call Uptown home-and want to continue to do so. If Uptown is some sort of social experiment, what is its failure--that it's some sort of bizarro world where the traditionally marginalized have the ears of the power brokers? If so, that's an interesting perspective, but one that is not likely to garner a lot of sympathy only because it is typically folks in your socioeconomic position--and frankly mine--who are listened to. I'm not saying your concerns should not be heard, but voicing and acting on those concerns in such a way that seem to threaten those who have established solid ground here does not seem to be the best way to do it.
HM said: "Let's say every single condo owner moved here with that idea. So what? It should be cleaned up. It's a pity that poor people aren't deserving of a cleaned up community. Sounds rather classist to me, NL."
ReplyDeleteHM, not sure of any point in responding to you since you seem to take what I say and then try to twist it. You don't make a good argument by trying to distort my point. However, cleaning up typically means moving the poor folks out, and I think you know that.
NL, no where did I or anyone ever say that Uptown is "cleaned up" by getting rid of poor people. I just want an area cleaned up of the illegal peddlers, aggressive panhandlers, public drinkers, public urinators, gangbangers, and prostitutes. If you get the chance to know your neighbors from all different types of economic backgrounds, you will learn they, too, want the same. Instead, you choose to join the Ron's, Marc's, and Helen's of this ward who seek to divide people. Why?
ReplyDeleteum i think "sock man" and "soap lady" and "deodorant person" likely get these items via illegal means and sell them cheap. as for not getting ticketed we all know its probably Shiller. is she also a client? LOL
ReplyDeleteIf Uptown is some sort of social experiment, what is its failure--that it's some sort of bizarro world where the traditionally marginalized have the ears of the power brokers? NL
ReplyDeleteSorry, NL. It's these power brokers who are using the marginalized to strengthen their own power base. That's what power brokers like Helen do. Their own lust for power has them use the most vulnerable in ways that keep them dependent. The complaint voiced by many residents has always been that the marginalized have never been better off from being used by Helen. Thus, it's a social experiment gone bad.
CD said: "The main difference between you and I is perception. I choose to celebrate the people who try to live life the right way. You choose to make excuses for the people who don't."
ReplyDeleteWho gets to define what is the right versus wrong way to live? You Chip? Me? Because I think my thoughts about the "right way" to live would be pretty different from yours. For instance some people on this site seem to think that I should be impressed that they worked hard and finally were able to afford a condo here in Uptown. If that's what they value that's fine but pretty much all that says to me is that the greater portion of that individual's life was spent working for personal gain. I don't really think that's something to be proud of let alone worthy of laud by contemporaries. "Sock guy" and "soap lady" are trying to scrape a living from a system that I'm sure they think has failed them. I recognize the frustration with the equal distribution of justice. But that's hardly the fault of the peddlers.
"Who gets to define what is the right versus wrong way to live? You Chip? Me? Because I think my thoughts about the "right way" to live would be pretty different from yours."
ReplyDeleteIt's called the Legislative and Judicial branches. You should try to read up about them instead of following cops around with cameras and following your buddy Ron in to stores like a puppy.
Here is how it works. NL jumps on the blog, gets annihilated, contacts Kenny to come stick up for her, then kenny contacts NDavis to come validate her point. That is why they never post without the other. That is why they disrupt community meetings. It is like a crazy person convincing other crazies that hey hear the voices too, then they try to convince the sane that they hear it as well.
Im not hearing it..I only hear Helen.
If I'm not mistaken, many of the Ron types who think addressing crime is picking on poor people are the same ones who believe it shouldn't be a crime to sell drugs on the street. These are the same people who believe believe it's wrong to own a condo. Talk about warped values.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, that last Jason comment was a different Jason.
ReplyDeleteEven though he is probably right...
chipdouglas said...
ReplyDeleteHere is how it works. NL jumps on the blog, gets annihilated, contacts Kenny to come stick up for her, then kenny contacts NDavis to come validate her point. That is why they never post without the other. That is why they disrupt community meetings. It is like a crazy person convincing other crazies that hey hear the voices too, then they try to convince the sane that they hear it as well.
Malarkey. Does everyone who posts here actually know each other IRL? Aren't all of you chiming in to express your agreement with the premise of this thread?
So why is it that those of us who have a different opinion "must" be in cahoots and/or know Shiller?
Why can't you just accept the fact that not every condo owner in Uptown agrees with you?
Perhaps some of you who seem to spend hours and hours in front of a computer should get out in the community and involve yourself - volunteer - or work to make it better. It is so easy to criticize either side. Do something that might make a difference, rather spending so much time talking about it.
ReplyDeleteKenny, NL, ND, I don't know the three of you but I agree with your point. Furthermore, it does seem mildly offensive that people are so keen on attacking dissenters irregardless of their POV. CD, i know you disagree but why attack, it isn't constructive.
ReplyDeleteWithout wading too much into this debate (i have to get a lot done today) i find it quite interesting that the "sock person," and the "soap lady" have no voice in this debate.Not to support what they do, but it is sad that they are being treated like pests, not people.
Wow, people are getting angry with eachother lately. Bottomline, the guy selling soap on the corner doesnt bother me, however, if he is breaking the law and not using a permit etc, etc, etc, then people have a right to complain about it. People can even assume he doesnt have a permit and complain about it, I dont care. Some people just don't like to be hasseled when walking down the street, whether legal or not. You can also assume he doesnt have a permit and defend him, I dont care either. But you can not say it is "okay" for people to sell things illegally just because they are trying to "scrape by", ND, NL and Kenny. These people aren't picking on the peddlers, they are complaining about how the laws need to be followed, even by people trying to make a buck to survive.
ReplyDeleteAnd FYI NL, I cant speak for every show on Mich Ave, but I have talked to the bucket guys and they do have a permit. However, later that night I saw one from the group strolling down Huron around State Street cracked out on something. Needless to say, I won't be tossing any money in their bucket again.
Also, on another blog I used to post on they "outed" all the people that post under double names. Not sure if you can do that with blogger though, but they were able to keep track of what users posted from what IP address. Obviously two different posters from the same IP address are the same person. It was actually really hilarious to see. People were making arguments, and then backing themselves up under a different name. I have no doubt that happens here on both ends of the spectrum.
But there is no POV, here. If the guy is breaking the law selling things on a corner without a permit, it is not okay, under any circumstances. Regardless of your "life situation", you have to follow the laws.
One of the popular end-of-year stories in the press is the list of "words to avoid in the new year." I wish the 2008 features would have included "marginalized."
ReplyDeleteI mean, don't we already have enough synonyms for what the French so eloquently call "Les Miserables?"
Call them underprivileged, disadvantaged, lower-class, under-class, or heck, just plain "poor" - but "marginalized?" Meaningless and unnecessary sociobabble!
for all those concerned about people who are selling socks on the sidewalk not being regulated and not paying taxes, maybe you should read the article below, from CBS News in August 2008, far from an extreme leftist media outlet quoting people who are certainly not extreme leftists. Among other things, it says "Two-thirds of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1998 and 2005, according to a new report from Congress...Collectively, the companies reported trillions of dollars in sales, according to GAO's estimate." FYI, the GAO is the Government Accountability Office, part of the U.S. government.
ReplyDeleteall the law and order folks should be really upset about this! but i'm sure many of you will still refuse to acknowledge the double standard you operate with.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/12/national/main4342535.shtml
Ron,
ReplyDeleteWell, that link doesn't lead me to an article. If you can post a good link to the article, I will gladly read it.
Also, with all due respect, you cannot compare the two. After I read the article I will try to explain why.
Also, all meida has a bias to sell thier product.
ron, as bad as it is for corporations to have no tax liability, it results from the manner in which the tax returns were submitted. this is a far cry from peddling under the radar without proper permits. yes, this one little thing may not appear to cause much harm, but many of the problems in uptown result from a combination of "little" things like this, along with gang/drug crimes.
ReplyDeleteRon,
ReplyDeleteSometimes I see your point of view from reading this blog, not that I agree with you but I see it. For some reason though, you just don't get it. You're here trying to change the world, we're trying to change Uptown. It seems to me that you believe that if one person doesnt conform to the law, no one else has to. If that is what you believe, I don't think America is the right place for you.
We're focusing on our community Ron. So if you don't have anything constructive to say, why bother saying it???? You basically sound like an toddler, "They're doing it mommy, WHY CANT I?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? WAH WAH WAH!!!".
People are possibly illegally selling merchandise on the street, that is a problem in Uptown if it is a true statement. General Motors not paying taxes on 1,000 cars does not directly effect my community. And even though I would care about GM doing this, it would be impossible for me to take on a big corporation like that myself. I think finding out if some peddlers on the street are conducting illegal activity, and if they are take the appropriate actions is something more reasonable. You gotta start small Ron, seriously. Or just find some place where more people have your views, but it wont be in this country.
Ron, here's a good place to start though to address corporate America and you can do it on the local level too! Get on Helen's case about Target ripping off Chicago citizens with the Wilson Yard TIF. There's a link to Fix Wilson Yard's website on UU. See, we can find some common ground and stick it to corporate America in the process. Because you know Ron, if you don't speak up about Corporate America on the local level, we can accuse you of the very same thing you've accused us of doing.
ReplyDeleteBreaking news: All taxes paid by corporations are in fact by paid consumers.
ReplyDeleteIncomes taxes on corporations are subsidized by their customers. Taxes are costs to the business. Costs are factored into the shelf price of their goods and services.
While these companies should pay taxes, the levies we place on them are just paid by the people anyway.
RE Soul's comment... so what's your point? Consumers subsidize the corporate CEOs, private jets, etc. The CEO's taxes pay for the hand-outs to Helen's people. Boeing and Raytheon are two local corporations which pull in mega tax dollars (defense contracts) so tax payers (me for instance) are subsidizing those companies. We're all conected here.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to brave the sub-zero temps, "SockMan" is out on the corner now. Almost seems as if someone wants him out there as a big "FU" to everyone. Unbelievable.
ReplyDeleteso what's your point?
ReplyDeleteI made my point. All taxes that a corporation pays are in fact paid by the consumers of their goods and services.
I'm really just telling Ron something he probably already knows, yet doesn't fit neatly in the legend than never dies of Marxist Mythology.
Boeing and Raytheon are two local corporations which pull in mega tax dollars (defense contracts) so tax payers (me for instance) are subsidizing those companies.
That's not all. The subsidies they receive are costs the consumers also incur. What we get are stagnant jobs whose growth depends mostly on how much the people wish to allow their government to increase those subsidies for pay increases or job creation.
Oh, and we also get some nifty "free" events in the Summertime.
It doesn't have to be this way. We accept this abusive relationship and reason our way back into the box.
However, cleaning up typically means moving the poor folks out, and I think you know that.
ReplyDeleteReally NL? You must have a low opinion of the poor if that is what you think.
So being poor is an excuse for being a poor neighbor? An excuse to vandalize, litter, deal drugs, be violent? Use the streets as a toilet? All that is ok if you are poor?
The poor don't deserve to live in a safe neighborhood? They don't deserve to be able to walk the street without getting shot, or harrassed for money, mugged or beaten up?
Granted, I'm not saying you claim this to be true, and nor do I think you believe this to be true... but your statement threw me for a loop.
I happen to think that poor people should have a choice of where they want to live, just as much as any of us do to choose what neighborhood they want to live in, where they want to raise their kids...etc.
They shouldn't be forced to live in one tiny Ward in Uptown because no other neighborhood in the city of Chicago offers affordable housing.
If Helen Shiller was truly the crusader she claims she is, I would see her working against Daley's efforts to push the poor out of the Loop where the tourists won't see them... she would be pushing legislation to mandate that every Ward in Chicago provide an equal number of social services and affordable housing.
But we don't see her doing that, do we? Gee, wonder why? Because the more poor people who live in Uptown can be frightened and brow beaten into believing that the evil condo owners are going to steal their homes, and they better vote for Shiller or else? Hmmmm...
CD, annihilate? Please. You're as melodramatic as you claim the Shiller supporters are. Look, the usual suspects disagreed with me (as I suspected they would). Does not mean my point was not valid.
ReplyDeleteHM said: "NL, no where did I or anyone ever say that Uptown is "cleaned up" by getting rid of poor people. I just want an area cleaned up of the illegal peddlers, aggressive panhandlers, public drinkers, public urinators, gangbangers, and prostitutes. If you get the chance to know your neighbors from all different types of economic backgrounds, you will learn they, too, want the same. Instead, you choose to join the Ron's, Marc's, and Helen's of this ward who seek to divide people. Why?"
ReplyDeleteHM, read very carefully. I did not say that you (or even anyone on this board) said "clean up" means get rid of poor people. What I did say is that some folks out there looking to buy into a gentrifying area may equate cleaning up with getting rid of poor people. That is when you responded that my comment was classist, it made no sense--I was not talking about literally cleaning the streets, which I agree, all people of all classes deserve a clean, livable community. What that means, though, may change depending on who you ask.
And you are constantly aligning me with people based on m having a somewhat different take on a topic. I've no idea how you intend to have unity cut across such boundaries if people are not even allowed to have a different point of view on some issues. You demonstrate very little respect for anything or any statement that you think deviates even slightly from the Hate-Shiller programming on this site. CD claims I've been annihilated by the responses to my daring to think differently or that I should change my mind. But your assumptions and rhetoric are not divisive? Please.
Caindre Aucon (sorry, I think I misspelled your name), here's the point. I am not saying people should go nuts breaking the law. What I am saying is that in the grand scheme of things, there are certain activities that I am not going to wig out about. Life's too short. However, UU likes to spotlight any and everything in Uptown that can be viewed as negative to spotlight what they believe are Shiller's failure--and that's UU blog and right to do so.
ReplyDeleteBut the bottom line is that it's not the peddlers, per se, but it's that in Uptown, for many of these regular posters to UU, these peddlers symbolize the stronghold that they feel Shiller has on this ward. If they are passionate about a person not selling socks and soap, then as I said before, they can call 311 or 911. To me, peddlers are not that big a deal and, so long as they are not causing anyone physical harm, I cannot bring myself to express such passionate disdain and hate for them (and, by proxy, Shiller). So while having proper licensing or not is pretty cut and dried, CA, there is a POV on how I choose to respond and react to the peddlers.
Farrell, again, easy to spin a counter-argument when you remove quotes from context. I'll try it real simple. Some people believe that "cleaning up" a neighborhood means getting rid of poor people. Do I believe that? Well, seeing as I have family here who would fit the category of poor, then the answer would be no. Try again.
ReplyDeleteWhat I did say is that some folks out there looking to buy into a gentrifying area may equate cleaning up with getting rid of poor people. NL
ReplyDeleteSo what? Some people are gentrifiers. Some people are anarchists. I really don't care. Do we not want to work for a safer neighborhood because "some people" have the awful intention of wanting to improve their property value?
I want to rid Uptown of crime? Are you on the same page or not?
Huh, HM? Now you have equated poor people with crime? What point are you trying to make exactly? Maybe you should try harder to make your own point and not worry so much about trying to just seem contrary to mine.
ReplyDeleteI'd like an entirely crime free world (unlikely), and specifically I do not want to see gang violence in my community. I don't want parents afraid to let their kids play for fear of them getting shot. I want these issues to not lapse into the same shrill debate that revolves around who we are against as opposed to what we are for. I think UU could be a much stronger blog and be a catalyst for that kind of coalition building if it brought in some other voices (but I concede, not my blog, but this is my opinion). This can be accomplished without absolute agreement on every single issue, I believe, but maybe you just don't think so.
NL, the issue was enforcement of the law. Do you believe laws should be enforced or do you believe we should pick & choose which laws we'd like to have enforced for today?
ReplyDeleteHM, you could care less about peddling anywhere else in the city. Uptown peddlers = Shiller's "in power." That's what you hate. I've walked past those peddlers in the afternoon in the summer time and I've never been hassled.
ReplyDeleteAnd you want to ask about picking and choosing which laws to enforce? If a person is violating an ordinance and a cop picks them up, I have no way to say that the person can't be cited for violating the law. If the law is on the books and it's "valid" then it should be fairly and equally applied. So if any of you who speed and get pulled over and then try to talk yourself out a ticket, stop it, because you're encouraging the selective enforcement of the law, which all here are clearly opposed to...
But really, HM, in terms of what I will get angry about or afraid of seeing in my community, well, illegal sock and soap peddling ranks well below the drug dealer and gang shootings. IMO you will not find any crime free utopia in the city, not even on the blessed North side--including Lincoln Park. Some crime frightens and alarms me (getting mugged in Lincoln Park, shot on my way home from work, drug dealing, reckless drivers), and some, like sock and soap selling, even when done without a license, does not.
NL, you know and I know the days of laissez-faire in Uptown are coming to an end. The recent NewsStar editorial must have been upsetting to you. You see, that kind of writing didn't happen until just a few years ago. The tipping point occurred and your sad version of Uptown is going away. Too slow for my taste, but it's going away and we're all going to see it happen. And you know what, I think the poor people in Uptown are going to love it. I'll join them in celebrating.
ReplyDeleteYou on the other hand may want to try Rogers Park. It still has maybe a decade yet before it changes too. Then you can try the Austin neighborhood for that gritty look you like.
Troll? For whom would I be a troll for?
ReplyDeleteMy name is Athanasios Kalantzis and I lived in Uptown, Chicago from July 05’ until October 08’. I currently live in Edgewater. I have an opposing view to the “editorial board” of the UU, so why all the name calling?
I write a response to a post, and my submission is promptly deleted. Hours later, people respond to a post that no one could have possibly read. I’m a bit suspicious of all these coincidences.
The UU update goes through Shiller’s trash can and promptly posts scans of the “find” yet my requests for proof about “sock man’s” trouble with the police are met with the only assurances of existing proof. I’m still waiting UU.
But I guess that means I got “owned.”
Neighborlady says
ReplyDeleteI think UU could be a much stronger blog and be a catalyst for that kind of coalition building if it brought in some other voices (but I concede, not my blog, but this is my opinion). This can be accomplished without absolute agreement on every single issue, I believe, but maybe you just don't think so.
I have always thought this. For a while I posted a lot in order to try to bring some people in. What I found, however, was that the people who are really interested in the status quo just are not interested in productive dialog. I like you, neighborlady. You raise points that are not necessarily the ones most represented here. It also seems that you are a sucker for a good debate and that you are willing to concede issues from time to time. You also raise good questions yourself. However, there are other voices that echo some of your refrains who do not have your particular style. We can identify them because their names keep changing. Real world battles in Uptown have made it such that I think most people have little patience for Uptown political establishment voices here.
Although I will forever say that this neighborhood has great potential: we're stuck. There seems to be no place to start a conversation in this apparent winner-takes-all game. There seems to be no interest on the part of the local political establishment in trying. In my mind, that is what the most heated dialogues on this blog are always about...people trying to be heard. But in my entire time visiting this blog I have never once met a personality from the Shiller side consistently work through the issues with an attempt to listen, validate, inform and create good will. Sometimes Ron has his moments but he often gets tripped up with the bigness of the issues he wants to talk about.
There are good people in Uptown from all walks of life and this could be a great place to live for so many. I wish our community vision included the radical idea that all people deserve to be here and that this is a common ground upon which to build a functioning community for us all.
"Kalantzis"
ReplyDeleteWhy does that name sound familiar?
News-Star, \"Caught in the Crossfire\"
NL... try reading.. I state clearly in my post that I don't think you believe that to be true... but I found your comment ridiculous, and only reinforces stereotypes that many seem to have about those who feel that it makes more sense to put your money into something you own, instead of just flushing it down the toilet in rent... sorry if according to ND and RD, that makes me selfish or 'working for personal gain' blah blah blah... I have news for those two, we ALL work for personal gain... even the poor buy themselves treats when they can afford them. It's time for some folks to get off of their high horse.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the peddlers? Until their aren't people getting shot in Uptown, they don't concern me much.
I don't think anyone thinks it's wrong to want property values to rise, but I do think people are afraid to come out and say that's what they want. People are uncomfortable saying the increase in subsidized housing will have a negative effect on property values.
ReplyDeletePeople are uncomfortable saying the increase in subsidized housing will have a negative effect on property values.
ReplyDeleteWhat an interesting comment. Does anyone here think that more subsidized housing = an immediate negative effect on property values across the board? I don't think that people make blanket statements like that because there is no proof to back them up. Uptown has subsidized housing, shelters, halfway houses, etc., yet property values have gone up. Maybe its true that properties immediately adjacent to new affordable housing might go down. But its kind of crazy to think that all property owners in Uptown would get worked up because a micro area would see depreciation. If I may be so bold, we're all probably too self-centered to worry about that.
Subsidized units themselves are not the problem. The problem is with whether or not we have the right amount of social supports here to make a success out of adding more poor households and how the heck we are going to address the gang violence that is hurting everybody. Almost everyone I have ever talked to on this matter asks the same question: “how can we add more when we are struggling with what we have?”
PS: How in the world did this thread become about affordable housing and property values? Everything in Uptown does not boil down to affordable housing vs. those who want property values higher unless your name is Slim Coleman!
Ihatemondays...
ReplyDeleteIt's not low income housing that directly affects property values. Like any other neighborhood, the two major things that impact property values are crime and lack of thriving businesses in the community.
The 46th Ward has both...an increase of crime, and a lot of empty store fronts. Neither draws in potential buyers or businesses. If the area was so 'hot' for businesses, why then does Shiller and Daley have to pretty much bribe Target to come in via TIFF?
There are plenty of statistics that show that concentrating a large number of low-income housing and social services into one compact area, wharehousing the poor so to speak, has a negative affect on the neighborhood. Crime goes up. That doesn't mean that ALL poor people are criminals, just like it doesn't mean that ALL rich people are good Christians who never break the law... there are good and bad people in all social classes.
Chicago has learned a hard lesson in what happens when you segregate the classes by denying lower income people the right to CHOOSE where they want to live, forcing them into areas that typically don't provide the kind of assistance they need, proximity to jobs, transportation and social services. Uptown is unique in the fact that we do have good public transportation and proximity to these kinds of services... which is why so many come here to live.
This is why truly mixed income communities are the best option for a viable neighborhood.
My problem is that crime in Uptown has gotten worse over the past couple of years, and I don't see Helen Shiller doing a single thing about it. If anything, she goes out of her way to thwart progress at every turn.
As I stated before, if Helen Shiller was truly the crusader for the poor she claims to be... and if folks like Ron Durham and Nate Daniels truly care about these issues, WHY don't I see them working HARD to push legislation to mandate that EVERY ward in Chicago provide EQUAL access to low-to-no income housing, social services, etc.? Why don't I see Helen Shiller standing up to Daley, who has a long track record of literally shoving the poor out of the Loop so the tourists don't see them, and telling him, "No Mayor, you can NOT use my Ward as a dumping ground for issues you refuse to address." Instead Shiller is Daley's lap dog, doing whatever he asks of her and the folks in the 46th have zero say over it.
I believe the reason why Shiller does not do these things is because her only concern is herself. It is apparent from her actions, that she feels she doesn't have to answer to anyone, least of all her own constituents, especially if they are above a certain income level and aren't a part of her voter base.
As far as property values... when I moved in, I knew that I was surrounded by Section 8 and CHA housing. And with the exception of a few minor issues with the CHA buildings that were addressed immediately at CAPS meetings, and then addressed by the CHA, I pretty much never had any issues at all, and was happy in Uptown.
But in the past two years, people have been getting shot at and murdered, and the drug dealers have been so bold they do it in broad daylight, right in front of you and don't care... Gangs are shooting at each other in the middle of the day, in a public area where there are witnesses everywhere, yet they don't seem to care. THAT IHM, is a BAD sign for ANY neighborhood... it indicates that the criminals are confident that they can get away with what they are doing. They have zero fear. And why should they be scared? They have little to no opposition.
And yes, this all does affect property values negatively. It doesn't help sell your home when a potential buyer has to walk through the middle of a drug deal to ring your buzzer. It doesn't help that as a buyer is leaving your home after viewing it, they witness a man punching out his girlfriend because she took some of his stash. And it doesn't really make your neighborhood look good when a group of teenagers are using cars that don't belong to them as places to sit, deal drugs and gamble on the sidewalk because they have nothing else better to do.
There are many SRO's and Section 8 buildings are well managed and are good neighbors in the community. But there are also many that aren't well managed and these buildings are a hotbed of criminal activity that mostly goes undisturbed. Mainly because people like Helen Shiller and COURAJ make it damn near impossible for the cops to do their job, and Shiller completely ignores anyone that has the gall to come and cite a complaint in her office, and her staff is verbally abusive and stand around wielding baseball bats at a peaceful anti-crime rally.
She's so ridiculous, that when a social service like the Wilson Men's Club is cited for numerous health and safety violations, literally, health conditions SO deplorable that anyone with a beating heart wouldn't put diseased cattle into one of these rooms - that instead of coming to court to ensure that the owner/manager of the building take responsibility for it and fix it up immediately, she comes there to DEFEND the owner. Yes, I know he is a fairly new owner and has since addressed those issues once he was forced to by the city, however, that building has been deplorable for what, a decade at least? And given how long Shiller has been in command, it's not like that could of been the first time she heard about conditions there... and THIS is the crusader for the poor we should all fall down and praise at her feet? Please!
It's VERY easy to just claim that condo owners just hate poor folk, and they only care about themselves...this claim has gotten so old it can register to vote now.
But I have yet to have even ONE person who can explain the actions and inaction of Helen Shiller when it comes to addressing the ROOT issues of what is ailing Uptown.
Not one person can provide her with a valid excuse, and you know why? Because there is none for it.
And THAT IHM, is why many of us evil condo owners have had enough of the BS... while peddlers in the grand scheme of things are not that big of a deal really, it's just yet ONE more example of the ineptitude of Helen Shiller, anyone who pays taxes to support her causes should be pissed off too. Especially those who are denied their right to have a say in where that money goes.
It sad to think that we think everyone has the same privilege, knowledge and opportunities that we have in its not true.
ReplyDeleteLife in Uptown will be sad if the diversity in people, income and education went to just all rich neighbor.
What really wrong with diversity? What’s wrong with the center of Chicago reflecting what Chicago represents diversity absolutely nothing?
What’s wrong with low income housing or SRO nothing and there is nothing wrong with condo’s and homes but the best communities have a perfect blend and mixture.
I often wonder where the love for your neighbor is on this blog. That means with the exact same love you have for YOU without prejudice or preconceived thoughts. Where is the love for the sick, the poor, or the less unfortunate then you! So where is the love?
It seems to me that a common theme to this thread, is the feigned desire to have equal justice doled out equally. This just further exposes the double standard created by most of the people of UU: 'people should have the ability to walk down a not blocked sidewalk' but no one seems to be upset at the giant pile of snow blocking the sidewalk between Lawrence and Leland on Winthrop or about the construction that is going on at the corner of Leland and Winthrop (all 4 of them since fall). And everyone was willing to jump to the defense of Rob when his business was the target of debatably "random" inspections but now that it's someone from the community that at times is unsightly to you or inconveniently placed then "the law must be upheld." Whose picking and choosing their laws again now?
ReplyDeleteHey Nathaniel, remind me again where you and the other Catholic Workers stand on arresting drug dealers?
ReplyDeleteNathaniel-
ReplyDeleteI'll back you up here... I wonder why your concerns weren't posted after you notified UU. I remember very specifically other posts concerning torn up sidewalks, curbs, etc.
I must have missed something. Where did Nathaniel say he notified UU of the pile of snow and they did nothing? I've read quite a few posts regarding the unfinished sewer work and torn up sidewalks. Not sure I get the correlation there.
ReplyDeleteNathaniel, it's really not hypocritical at all. Anything that promotes victimization or anarchy, you support. That's why just about any subject that involves an opinion is one where you will find many people finding disagreement with you, and Ron, and Marc, and Karen, and Denise, and Helen.
ReplyDeleteWe disagree on CAPS.
We disagree on Court Advocacy.
We disagree with the way low-income housing should be built.
We disagree on the way low-income housing should be managed.
We disagree on the enforcement of laws.
We disagree on the benefits of home ownership.
We disagree on graffiti and tagging.
We disagree on panhandling.
We disagree on unlicensed peddlers.
We disagree on ways to best help the poor.
We disagree on the approach to help the homeless.
We disagree on the way to help the mentally ill.
We disagree on public drinking.
We disagree on prostitution.
We disagree about gangs.
We disagree on block clubs.
We disagree on what helps the youth.
We disagree about education.
We disagree about retail.
We disagree on the way a ward should be run.
We disagree on Helen Shiller.
There are quite a few people who have differing opinions on the above subjects, but you, and Ron, and Marc, and Karen, and Denise, and Helen are consistent with your beliefs about them. We know how you think because we've all had to learn the hard way. But the tipping point has tipped our way. That's why it's probably frustrating to you that right around the time the Inauguration Day occurs, UU will register 1,000,000 hits. While we all don't think alike, you will observe many readers are in agreement that Uptown needs to be a safer and better place to live for everyone; except for you, and Ron, and Marc, and Karen, and Denise, and Helen.
Sassy, you debate passionately but respectfully and without resort to distorting or twisting my words or name-calling or outright lying. I appreciate that.
ReplyDeleteHM, it's sad that your so stuck on your same note all you can do is throw out these weird attacks. Uptown has changed positively quite a bit in the last 3 decades and I think it will continue to improve for all classes who choose to live here, including you. At this time, I've no interest in Rogers Park or Austin, but thanks for the suggestions...
ReplyDeleteWhat really wrong with diversity? What’s wrong with the center of Chicago reflecting what Chicago represents diversity absolutely nothing?
ReplyDeleteWhat’s wrong with low income housing or SRO nothing and there is nothing wrong with condo’s and homes but the best communities have a perfect blend and mixture.
Nothing is wrong with diversity. No one said there was. Nothing is wrong with low-income housing or SRO housing. Honestly, when anyone tosses out any innuendos that some of us on this blog don't like poor people or black people or mentally ill people or homeless people or disabled people, it ends up causing more polarization. We find it rude, untrue, and dishonest. The result is you get tuned out. Is that what you really want?
gOODNESS, I believe most people in this neighborhood who are rich, poor, in-between, black, brown, white, large, small, able-bodied, not able-bodied want that blend and mixture as well. We all want the same thing. There's just disagreement about what makes a diverse community.
I guess my question is this: When is there enough built housing for the poor, the disabled, and the mentally ill? When are there enough homeless shelters in a neighborhood? Do we keep building until there is no more or do we abide with what research says is a healthy mixture that allows everyone to live safely and productively?
Farrell said: "(quoting NL in part) 'However, cleaning up typically means moving the poor folks out, and I think you know that.'
ReplyDeleteReally NL? You must have a low opinion of the poor if that is what you think....
NL... try reading.. I state clearly in my post that I don't think you believe that to be true... but I found your comment ridiculous..."
Farrell, the first part is what you said initially, accusing me of having low standards for poor people in response to what you then called my "ridiculous" comment. I don't believe my point was ridiculous--some people buying into "gentrifying" neighborhoods do view "cleaning up the neighborhood" as synonymous with getting rid of poor or "unsightly" people (and not simply criminals). I don't see what was ridiculous about that comment. I don't say that's how you feel but I think it is dishonest to claim that is not how some people feel.
Some people are anarchists and some people are bigots. We live in a diverse community.
ReplyDeleteStill, whatever one's good or bad motivations happen to be, there is sound community planning and there are sound ways to enhance the retail in the area. And that brings us back on topic of the thread. There's a reason why the city sets guidelines on peddling and wouldn't it be nice to have those guidelines enforced. NL, you've made it clear it doesn't bother you. It bothers me, so I will make more effort to push to have the law enforced. You however, will not. Don't you just love diversity?
I don't believe my point was ridiculous--some people buying into "gentrifying" neighborhoods do view "cleaning up the neighborhood" as synonymous with getting rid of poor or "unsightly" people (and not simply criminals). I don't see what was ridiculous about that comment. I don't say that's how you feel but I think it is dishonest to claim that is not how some people feel. NL
ReplyDeleteIf you discredit a messenger, then you can discredit the message. That poor form of argument is known as a "Red Herring" and it was also used by Marc Kaplan in his radio interview. The idea is to toss out something smelly to discredit the real message. For NL, it switched from the topic of illegal peddling to questioning the motives of people who want to address illegal peddling. When the person is challenged about the Red Herring, the typical response is they felt it was important to know, but they're not able to explain why. I regret not calling it out more quickly.
I know soap guy and sock lady. Last time Shiller ran they were observed voting at 3 different polling places for Shiller.
ReplyDeleteOh and MarathonMan, CAPS IS DEAD I MEAN DEAD. So keep wasting your time at those CAPS meetings where t they teach you how to complain on the police. The reason the police aren't stopping and citing sock man or soap lady is 19 mths without a contrct, an imcompetent Superintendent and a Mayor who is morally bankrupt and totally corrupt. For your own safety buy a gun, and remember God , Guns and Guts made America free.
'Holy Moley' is always a voice of reason.
ReplyDeleteBack to the original premise. Hawking unregulated goods on a street-corner, is trouble.
Helen's office is a scant 50 or so feet south of here......these 'vendors' should really set up shop in front of her office. I'm sure Helen would embrace them 100%, and maybe add baseball bats to the inventory?