The Lexus SUVs, BMWs, and Mercedes were lined up on Clarendon; the thousand dollar suits were in abundance; "give us your tax dollars" they said or we won't come to your neighborhood to make our money.
A random comment on Lake View Station -I'm still trying to wrap my head around the project name.
1) It's not in Lake View. 2) There's no "station." 30 Another developer already built a condo called Lake View Station, in Lake View, near the Red Line Sheridan station!
From what I understand, they have 6 years until the zoning is supposed to change. They still have to pull together their financing. Over the long term, I think the deal should work out well for them. But how long are they going to sit on the land and do nothing until there is more demand for condos in the city?
Also, I don't like the density of the project and I really don't see any way around that. What we need here is better community infrastructure across the board. That alone should raise the overall quality of the neighborhood without adding to the density. We don't need to add more bodies to this neighborhood as much as we need to provide a climate that serves the people who already live here.
But what really stumps me is Helen's angle. Tamzen Trott and Cory Muldoon were prominently listed as speakers "for" the TIF at the CDC meeting. This whole thing looks like it is more suited for Armitage Avenue than Montrose Avenue. What are Helen and her supporters getting/what did they get out of this deal? It has to be something good to be able to stand up and support this plan with a straight face.
And, while I am generally on this topic I am also stumped by the list prices of the housing at Wilson Yard. The affordable units in Uptown are way, way less expensive than these units already. Does anyone know if those are just "list" prices and if people will really be relying on vouchers to pay for their units? Or, are those list prices only for a certain proportion of the units?
Just a note: this TIF is designed as "pay as you go" - meaning, that as revenues are generated from the retail piece (which is planned to go up, first), the city will then provide the TIF money.
This is a stark contrast to how Wilson Yard was financed.
Not that I'm in support of this project so much, but that is an important distinction which needs to be made - and may very well be the deciding factor in my, and others', support.
IMHO - Wilson Yard was a complete failure with regards to how it was handled and has soured the community on the use of any TIFs.
That's a hole which our alderman, for whatever reason, decided needed to be dug, and dug deep.
It was for the best that she didn't make an appearence last night; but, I did wonder what the atmosphere regarding WY would have been had the comprehensive community been properly engaged during that process.
I will give a little credit to the folks who made themselves available as they did for this project; and in truth, some of the bitterness was assuaged.
Some.
Another note re: WY: My crowing about Target's sweet deal needs to be recalculated. As I learned last evening from a few people is that Target may have gotten a sweet deal on the land (understandbale enough), they have been shouldering the cost of their construction.
The gig with that being, essentially, some of the taxes which Target will generate will apparently go towards financing the housing portion.
That, of course, opens a new line of argument; but, I just thought I'd add that to the general discussion.
I was severely disappointed in the neighborhood turnout for this event and truly hope there are more next week. For all of those who are "angry" about TIF waste or wanting the neighborhood to change so badly, so few were there.
The buildings they are showing are HUGE and not at all in proportion to our neighborhood. And they say they are building so large because they want to. I asked why they would not simply build to the scale of the neighborhood and at a cost they could afford but they had no answer. They just want bigger and more tax dollars. They also said that this whole development is a "for-profit" venture and will make a nice sum. I inquired why they felt the need to make such a nice sum on the backs of our school children, who will suffer from lack of funds due to the TIF, and they also had no answer.
I also heard a rumor that a developer that is NOT Sedgewick properties is waiting to sign in June or July and that part of this development is already not happening, but, instead, something of which the community has NOT been informed. True rumor??? I don't know one way or the other.
Also, the traffic study did NOT take into account that parking will no longer be free in the park and those folks will need to park in our neighborhood AND not turn into Montrose Harbor but into our neighborhoods seeking free parking.
I asked a couple of different people why the need for a new TIF. The CDC guy lied to my face. When I called him on it he had to come up with a new rationale.
I went to many meetings for the Wilson yard project and donated money too for the fight but what good did it do. I see it everytime I look out my condo windows. I live right across the street from Maryville and most of all the hundreds of condo owners here do not want this to be built right outside our windows but we feel too hopeless as this comapny has the right strings to pull and sour our peaceful living we all enjoy now. Many are thinking of selling before it is too late......
I work in the suburbs and left work an hour early to try and make it back for the meeting. Thanks to Cubs traffic I didn't get home until 6:45. My plan is to do the same next week for the second meeting and hope for better traffic. The start times of these two meetings, to me is already a sign that the developer isn't too interested in working with the community. I mean start at 7 and probably you only need 1 meeting.
Yo,
Good post as always. I have a question for you since you seem to be in the know in a lot of things... Weren't they supposed to start with the retail at WY as well? and if so was WY originally set up as a "pay as you go" before Helen decided to ditch the theaters and put $400k into each unit of low income housing?
As far asw I know (and I'm by no means an expert - just going off what I heard) the "pay as you go" bit is new to this development.
WY was done differently.
I'm not sure (tho, many others will know) if retail was supposed to go in first.
And, according to many different reports, official and otherwise, the theaters pulled out on their own accord.
The question is "why did they pull out?"
I don't know that.
As for the meeting times, I raised that issue as well. Not that I think the people I'd asked were trying to be nefarious, they simply didn't know why 5:30 was selected as the time.
As I'd mentioned to them, since they're working against the Ghost of WY, every little detail is going to be scrutinized and a 5:30 meeting was not a popular choice.
They tended to agree.
However, this wasn't a "meeting" so much as an exhibition/q&a session. If you came at 6:30, the same information was available as if you showed up @5:30.
I did like the format of the presentation. It was more of a job-fair sort of evening. There were tables set up around the room which covered the various aspects of the project. It was a format which would work for people showing up at various times and suited to addressing individual issues as opposed to the lecture/presentation/Q&A.
I don't understand why TIFs should be used to build any kind of housing, even "affordable" housing.
In my opinion, TIF money for the Target store and other retail is generally OK because it creates jobs and sales tax revenue. Better yet, use the TIF to create long term better paying jobs and we all win big.
But it seems to me that TIF money for a project like Lake View Station is just a giant subsidy for a developer.
Yes, we are getting some so called senior housing, but I think high quality senior housing could be built on less expensive property west of Uptown. Why do seniors need fancy lake views? Also, there is money from HUD available for just this purpose. A new seniors only building has just been completed at Ravenswood and Peterson.
The zoning change will be immediate, not off in the future. If the developer does not develop the property in 6 years, then it will revert back to it's prior zoning classification.
I am bothered with the parking garage that is going where the Park District tennis courts are now. The City is selling that land to the developer and the developer says they will build underground parking for the "luxury" condo building on the NE corner of Montrose & Clarendon.
Via the TIF, the developer will get funds to do what no developer in their right mind would ever do with their own money on that NE corner property. They are going down, down, down to excavate and/or cap the water pipes and everything else that still remains 20-60 feet underground from the old water pumping station.
The other very bothersome thing is that this developer can't get any financing to do the development. The city is upzoning for a phantom project that may never get built. And, the zoning change alone will put cash in Maryville's and the developer's pockets. If the developer can't do his own deal, he can - as the TIF master developer, go off and work with another developer who can do anything permitted in that zoning classification.
How much of the park will they be annexing? I've only been in the area a short time, but my fiance and I have been talking about playing on those tennis courts since winter. Will the sports field be lost as well? The youth soccer and lacrosse leagues we've seen played there always gave us the feel that uptown wasn't such a bad place.
We like the idea of new condo's being built, but I'm not sure how we feel about them being financed with tax dollars. When we bought our place, we thought WY was a new condo development, like the one on the SW corner of Montrose and Broadway. Then I discovered the fix wilson yard website and we almost backed out of our offer.
Would it be possible to convert WY to condos? I know the city supported a program a couple of years ago to promote home ownership for low and middle income families. Condos with an income cap. I don't like the idea of WY being a low income rental property, but low income condos would be great. From what I've read on this website Schiller would like economic diversity it would create. And having owners with a stake in the place instead of tenants would mean that people would actually care for the property.
Is that something we could push for in WY? I feel using TIF money to subsidize the sale of these units would not be the colossal waste that building it was.
Establishing a TIF is like courting a beautiful woman; during the courtship,the taxpayers are promised wonderful things will happen if you give us your property taxes for the next 23 years. Then the truth comes out.
The promises Shiller made for Wilson Yard included--a movie theater and restaurants/cafe, wonderful mixed-income housing along Montrose, a French Market, all connected by a beautifully landscaped pedestrian entrance extending Sunnyside to Broadway.
Retail would be the first phase, with the movie theaters.
After the taxpayers were on the hook, the Wilson Yard plan changed drastically. Movie theaters pulled out because they would have to include huge additional costs of elevators/escalators to the 4-5 level on top of parking/retail.
Mixed income housing became all low-income housing. Holsten had the balls to say, "The housing is changing from mixed-income to affordable housing because the costs didn't pencil in," at a Truman College meeting.
Remember Wilson Yard costs skyrocketed from $24 million in TIF contributions, to $112 million and we still haven't solved Uptown's blight--that's why they want another $69 million to fix what they couldn't do with WY.
The theater pulled out because they were relegated a very small third story wedged in between the low-income housing, parking lots and Target. Not on the ground floor corner – not as a gateway to Uptown's commercial district - but secondary to low-income housing.
In addition with all the federal laws regarding handicapped accessibility it was economically unwise to satisfy all of the requirements of building/providing access three floors up. I believe they would have needed a subsidy from the city to do so. Target had to wait ‘til Jan of 2009 to get their sweet deal. That’s why phase 2 (the housing) started before phase 1 (the commercial). I’m sure Kerasotes -for financial reasons - didn’t want to wait that long. Shortly after they pulled out they bought the Webster Place Theater.
They knew a bad plan when they saw it and didn't sick around.
Pulling that Maryville area out of the Wilson TIF to create a new TIF starts the clock running for a new 23 year period. After all, the Wilson TIF is getting old and this gives the not already developed area a new taxpayer sucking life.
And, Uptown is so covered with TIF's at this point that the TIF's are all contiguous and thus they can legally "port" funds from one TIF to another to another get cash whereever Helen wants it to go.
Look at the City TIF map and you can see how blue we are:
http://tinyurl.com/395okvc
My guess is that her next move is to port cash up to the Lakeside-Clarendon TIF to build the approved low income housing, which lost it's income generator when the H20 condo project went bankrupt
To get the real story you have to look at the zoning change applications. (Should you believe them or you "lying" eyes?)
The City just did a zoning remap in 2004 to prevent community character destroying large developments from plopping down in 3 flat areas. Clarendon Park (Uptown Area 6) was ---according to the City presentation ---being rezoned from RT5 down to RT4 or RT 4.5 to preserve the existing density.
Residential RM-5 permits building up to 47 ft. The planned development scam is allowing the city and developer to avoid the normal area zoning restrictions to cram in the highest level use there is (aside from being an industrial plant.)
The PD should have matched the surrounding residential zoning and gone, at most to Business/Commercial B-3 with heights up to 50-60ft. Instead the rammed it all the up to the top, B-5, which allows 50-75 feet on top of the garage space.
So Phase 1 will be an 85 foot tall square box built out to the sidewalks on the North East corner of Montrose & Clarendon. Hey, it will match Wilson Yards. What an amazing coincidence. It will have retail, at most, on the 1st and 2nd floor even if it does have a 60,000 ft grocery (and hell freezes over.)
Then what is in the big square 85 foot tall box on the next 6 floors? Hey they're getting bumped up to the highest permitted zoning and they can do anything. The can pack that sucker with 20' x 10' dwelling units up to their development max of 1050.
Sounding more like Wilson Yards every day. After all, they even admit that the economy will never turn around in within the 6 years they need to start development or loose their upzone. So, why did they need to get hotel zoning when they know that the economy will never support an Uptown hotel or fill the 40% vacancy hotels begging for business downtown. (Remember all that lost convention trade you've seen on the news.)
What else do you suppose requires that zoning class? Come on, you know. I don't have to tell you.
They may never get around to putting up those luxury towers that they STILL CAN'T GET FINANCING TO BUILD.
Sedgwick Properties Development Corp’s Application for Zoning District Changes are:
From: RM-5 residential and Institutional Planned Development no 138
To: B3-5 and then to Business Residential Planned Development
According to Title 17 Zoning Ordinance
17-3-0101 Generally. ‘The “B” and “C” (Business and Commercial) districts are intended to accommodate retail, service and commercial uses and to ensure that business and commercial-zoned areas are compatible with the character of the existing neighborhood.’
There are (3) B Business districts: B1 Neighborhood Shopping District, B2 Neighborhood Mixed-Use District The B3 Community Shopping District is the largest in scale and is the most incompatible and out of character to the existing surrounding neighborhood.
B3, Community Shopping District.
17-3-0104-A. The primary purpose of the B3, Community Shopping district is to accommodate a very broad range of retail and service uses, often in the physical form of shopping centers or larger buildings than found in the B1 and B2 business districts, the B3 district is also intended to accommodate some types of uses that are not allowed in the B1 and B2 districts.
17-3-0104-B. Development in B3 districts will generally be destination-oriented, with a large percentage of customers arriving by automobile. Therefore the supply of off-street parking will tend to be higher in B3 districts than in B1 and B2 districts.
17-3-014-D. The B3 district is intended to be applied to large sites that have primary access to major streets. It may also be used along streets to accommodate retail and services use types that are not allowed in B1 and B2 districts.
17-3-0104-E The B3 district can be combined with the Dash 1 up to Dash 5 ( i.e.B3-5) bulk and density designations. (17-3-0401, 17-3-0402, 17-3-0403) Density refers to the number of dwelling units allowed per unit of land.
Density example: A typical Chicago Lot is about 24 x 125’ or 3,125 square feet. On a 3,125 square foot lot, the Minimum Lot Area per Dwelling Unit for a:
Dash 2 is 1,000 sf. --So a maximum of (3) 1,000sf dwelling units are allowed.
Dash 5 is 200 sf. --- So a maximum of (15) 200sf dwelling units are allowed.
"the "pay as you go" bit is new to this development. WY was done differently."
yes, WY was done differently, but no, "pay as you go" is not new to the Maryville TIF, it is in use in many TIF projects in Chicago
"pay as you go" is a characteristic of a TIF subsidy for a particular TIF project, not a characteristic of a TIF district
"pay as you go" means the city will not extend credit such as bond sales or city notes - the developer will not get public money up front in the forms of the proceeds of a bonds sale or a loan from the city
at the point where you draw a TIF district around an individual property owner's property, and fund that owner "pay as you go" it's equivalent to a property tax rebate, a property tax freeze for the 24-35 years at the 2010 level
"I inquired why they felt the need to make such a nice sum on the backs of our school children, who will suffer from lack of funds due to the TIF, and they also had no answer."
excellent question, the key issue
the "pay as you go" shtick does nothing to ameliorate this issue
go walk this site - it is fucking LAKEFRONT, PARKSIDE property on the north side of the fucking CITY OF CHICAGO - if this project cannot possibly pay its fair share of property taxes than every new construction project in Chicago needs property tax relief and we sad sack home-owners should just throw in the towel
The developer has written his zoning application is a way that puts a certain number of units in each building. Then is has a another statement that says he can shift those units within the Planned Development area to any building he wants so long as the number of dwelling units does not exceed 1100. So, it why he keeps saying there are 875 units in the project spread in certain areas and those who have read the zoning application say there really are 1100 units and he can build just about any damned thing he wants. That's the beauty of a Planned Development combined with the city's mixed use zoning class.
Perhaps I misspoke. There is beauty in the financial numbers for him but what he can build won't be beautiful or in character with the zoning of the surrounding community.
Does anyone out there realize that all the lots, from the city owned under the tennis court through the 5 Water Rec lots just eastof the tennis courts to Marine Drive are being sold to the developer? The planning department says, not to worry, they have it zoned in the PD so they can't place structures on those lots. But PD's cam be amended, just like the Maryville medical campus PD is being amended right now.
Why does this make me nervous? If the Water Rec lots are being sold to the developer in exchange for developer land on the West side, how is this a community benefit for the Uptown Community?
truthbearer- I have been trying to get answers on this part of the issue. everyone keeps assuring me all park grounds will be replaced with park grounds...maybe its time to bring Friends of the Parks in? I don't trust any of this. I know that whats there has to go (meaning the old buildings, not the parks), but this whole thing stinks. There is NO demand for any of this imho.
The Lexus SUVs, BMWs, and Mercedes were lined up on Clarendon; the thousand dollar suits were in abundance; "give us your tax dollars" they said or we won't come to your neighborhood to make our money.
ReplyDeleteA random comment on Lake View Station -I'm still trying to wrap my head around the project name.
ReplyDelete1) It's not in Lake View.
2) There's no "station."
30 Another developer already built a condo called Lake View Station, in Lake View, near the Red Line Sheridan station!
QRBNST-
ReplyDeletethat other Lakeview station is merely a figment of your imagination. It's not in a TIF, it couldn't possibly have happened.
QRBNST -
ReplyDeletehttp://uptownhistory.compassrose.org/2007/09/pumping-station-at-clarendon-montrose.html
I'm stumped.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I understand, they have 6 years until the zoning is supposed to change. They still have to pull together their financing. Over the long term, I think the deal should work out well for them. But how long are they going to sit on the land and do nothing until there is more demand for condos in the city?
Also, I don't like the density of the project and I really don't see any way around that. What we need here is better community infrastructure across the board. That alone should raise the overall quality of the neighborhood without adding to the density. We don't need to add more bodies to this neighborhood as much as we need to provide a climate that serves the people who already live here.
But what really stumps me is Helen's angle. Tamzen Trott and Cory Muldoon were prominently listed as speakers "for" the TIF at the CDC meeting. This whole thing looks like it is more suited for Armitage Avenue than Montrose Avenue. What are Helen and her supporters getting/what did they get out of this deal? It has to be something good to be able to stand up and support this plan with a straight face.
And, while I am generally on this topic I am also stumped by the list prices of the housing at Wilson Yard. The affordable units in Uptown are way, way less expensive than these units already. Does anyone know if those are just "list" prices and if people will really be relying on vouchers to pay for their units? Or, are those list prices only for a certain proportion of the units?
Just a note: this TIF is designed as "pay as you go" - meaning, that as revenues are generated from the retail piece (which is planned to go up, first), the city will then provide the TIF money.
ReplyDeleteThis is a stark contrast to how Wilson Yard was financed.
Not that I'm in support of this project so much, but that is an important distinction which needs to be made - and may very well be the deciding factor in my, and others', support.
IMHO - Wilson Yard was a complete failure with regards to how it was handled and has soured the community on the use of any TIFs.
That's a hole which our alderman, for whatever reason, decided needed to be dug, and dug deep.
It was for the best that she didn't make an appearence last night; but, I did wonder what the atmosphere regarding WY would have been had the comprehensive community been properly engaged during that process.
I will give a little credit to the folks who made themselves available as they did for this project; and in truth, some of the bitterness was assuaged.
Some.
Another note re: WY: My crowing about Target's sweet deal needs to be recalculated. As I learned last evening from a few people is that Target may have gotten a sweet deal on the land (understandbale enough), they have been shouldering the cost of their construction.
The gig with that being, essentially, some of the taxes which Target will generate will apparently go towards financing the housing portion.
That, of course, opens a new line of argument; but, I just thought I'd add that to the general discussion.
I was severely disappointed in the neighborhood turnout for this event and truly hope there are more next week. For all of those who are "angry" about TIF waste or wanting the neighborhood to change so badly, so few were there.
ReplyDeleteThe buildings they are showing are HUGE and not at all in proportion to our neighborhood. And they say they are building so large because they want to. I asked why they would not simply build to the scale of the neighborhood and at a cost they could afford but they had no answer. They just want bigger and more tax dollars. They also said that this whole development is a "for-profit" venture and will make a nice sum. I inquired why they felt the need to make such a nice sum on the backs of our school children, who will suffer from lack of funds due to the TIF, and they also had no answer.
I also heard a rumor that a developer that is NOT Sedgewick properties is waiting to sign in June or July and that part of this development is already not happening, but, instead, something of which the community has NOT been informed. True rumor??? I don't know one way or the other.
Also, the traffic study did NOT take into account that parking will no longer be free in the park and those folks will need to park in our neighborhood AND not turn into Montrose Harbor but into our neighborhoods seeking free parking.
Another thing...
ReplyDeleteI asked a couple of different people why the need for a new TIF. The CDC guy lied to my face. When I called him on it he had to come up with a new rationale.
I went to many meetings for the Wilson yard project and donated money too for the fight but what good did it do. I see it everytime I look out my condo windows. I live right across the street from Maryville and most of all the hundreds of condo owners here do not want this to be built right outside our windows but we feel too hopeless as this comapny has the right strings to pull and sour our peaceful living we all enjoy now. Many are thinking of selling before it is too late......
ReplyDeleteChuck,
ReplyDeleteI work in the suburbs and left work an hour early to try and make it back for the meeting. Thanks to Cubs traffic I didn't get home until 6:45. My plan is to do the same next week for the second meeting and hope for better traffic. The start times of these two meetings, to me is already a sign that the developer isn't too interested in working with the community. I mean start at 7 and probably you only need 1 meeting.
Yo,
Good post as always. I have a question for you since you seem to be in the know in a lot of things... Weren't they supposed to start with the retail at WY as well? and if so was WY originally set up as a "pay as you go" before Helen decided to ditch the theaters and put $400k into each unit of low income housing?
Pablo,
ReplyDeleteAs far asw I know (and I'm by no means an expert - just going off what I heard) the "pay as you go" bit is new to this development.
WY was done differently.
I'm not sure (tho, many others will know) if retail was supposed to go in first.
And, according to many different reports, official and otherwise, the theaters pulled out on their own accord.
The question is "why did they pull out?"
I don't know that.
As for the meeting times, I raised that issue as well. Not that I think the people I'd asked were trying to be nefarious, they simply didn't know why 5:30 was selected as the time.
As I'd mentioned to them, since they're working against the Ghost of WY, every little detail is going to be scrutinized and a 5:30 meeting was not a popular choice.
They tended to agree.
However, this wasn't a "meeting" so much as an exhibition/q&a session. If you came at 6:30, the same information was available as if you showed up @5:30.
Oh - and the Cubs were in Philly, last night ;)
On a positive note...
ReplyDeleteI did like the format of the presentation. It was more of a job-fair sort of evening. There were tables set up around the room which covered the various aspects of the project. It was a format which would work for people showing up at various times and suited to addressing individual issues as opposed to the lecture/presentation/Q&A.
I don't understand why TIFs should be used to build any kind of housing, even "affordable" housing.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, TIF money for the Target store and other retail is generally OK because it creates jobs and sales tax revenue. Better yet, use the TIF to create long term better paying jobs and we all win big.
But it seems to me that TIF money for a project like Lake View Station is just a giant subsidy for a developer.
Yes, we are getting some so called senior housing, but I think high quality senior housing could be built on less expensive property west of Uptown. Why do seniors need fancy lake views? Also, there is money from HUD available for just this purpose. A new seniors only building has just been completed at Ravenswood and Peterson.
Let's use TIFs, but target TIFs for job creation.
The zoning change will be immediate, not off in the future. If the developer does not develop the property in 6 years, then it will revert back to it's prior zoning classification.
ReplyDeleteI am bothered with the parking garage that is going where the Park District tennis courts are now. The City is selling that land to the developer and the developer says they will build underground parking for the "luxury" condo building on the NE corner of Montrose & Clarendon.
Via the TIF, the developer will get funds to do what no developer in their right mind would ever do with their own money on that NE corner property. They are going down, down, down to excavate and/or cap the water pipes and everything else that still remains 20-60 feet underground from the old water pumping station.
The other very bothersome thing is that this developer can't get any financing to do the development. The city is upzoning for a phantom project that may never get built. And, the zoning change alone will put cash in Maryville's and the developer's pockets. If the developer can't do his own deal, he can - as the TIF master developer, go off and work with another developer who can do anything permitted in that zoning classification.
Truthbearer,
ReplyDeleteHow much of the park will they be annexing? I've only been in the area a short time, but my fiance and I have been talking about playing on those tennis courts since winter. Will the sports field be lost as well? The youth soccer and lacrosse leagues we've seen played there always gave us the feel that uptown wasn't such a bad place.
We like the idea of new condo's being built, but I'm not sure how we feel about them being financed with tax dollars. When we bought our place, we thought WY was a new condo development, like the one on the SW corner of Montrose and Broadway. Then I discovered the fix wilson yard website and we almost backed out of our offer.
Would it be possible to convert WY to condos? I know the city supported a program a couple of years ago to promote home ownership for low and middle income families. Condos with an income cap. I don't like the idea of WY being a low income rental property, but low income condos would be great. From what I've read on this website Schiller would like economic diversity it would create. And having owners with a stake in the place instead of tenants would mean that people would actually care for the property.
Is that something we could push for in WY? I feel using TIF money to subsidize the sale of these units would not be the colossal waste that building it was.
Establishing a TIF is like courting a beautiful woman;
ReplyDeleteduring the courtship,the taxpayers are promised wonderful things will happen if you give us your property taxes for the next 23 years. Then the truth comes out.
The promises Shiller made for Wilson Yard included--a movie theater and restaurants/cafe, wonderful mixed-income housing along Montrose, a French Market, all connected by a beautifully landscaped pedestrian entrance extending Sunnyside to Broadway.
Retail would be the first phase, with the movie theaters.
After the taxpayers were on the hook, the Wilson Yard plan changed drastically. Movie theaters pulled out because they would have to include huge additional costs of elevators/escalators to the 4-5 level on top of parking/retail.
Mixed income housing became all low-income housing. Holsten had the balls to say, "The housing is changing from mixed-income to affordable housing because the costs didn't pencil in," at a Truman College meeting.
Remember Wilson Yard costs skyrocketed from $24 million in TIF contributions, to $112 million and we still haven't solved Uptown's blight--that's why they want another $69 million to fix what they couldn't do with WY.
Yo,
ReplyDeleteThe theater pulled out because they were relegated a very small third story wedged in between the low-income housing, parking lots and Target. Not on the ground floor corner – not as a gateway to Uptown's commercial district - but secondary to low-income housing.
In addition with all the federal laws regarding handicapped accessibility it was economically unwise to satisfy all of the requirements of building/providing access three floors up. I believe they would have needed a subsidy from the city to do so. Target had to wait ‘til Jan of 2009 to get their sweet deal. That’s why phase 2 (the housing) started before phase 1 (the commercial). I’m sure Kerasotes -for financial reasons - didn’t want to wait that long. Shortly after they pulled out they bought the Webster Place Theater.
They knew a bad plan when they saw it and didn't sick around.
Pulling that Maryville area out of the Wilson TIF to create a new TIF starts the clock running for a new 23 year period. After all, the Wilson TIF is getting old and this gives the not already developed area a new taxpayer sucking life.
ReplyDeleteAnd, Uptown is so covered with TIF's at this point that the TIF's are all contiguous and thus they can legally "port" funds from one TIF to another to another get cash whereever Helen wants it to go.
Look at the City TIF map and you can see how blue we are:
http://tinyurl.com/395okvc
My guess is that her next move is to port cash up to the Lakeside-Clarendon TIF to build the approved low income housing, which lost it's income generator when the H20 condo project went bankrupt
How did you think it would go?
ReplyDeleteTo get the real story you have to look at the zoning change applications. (Should you believe them or you "lying" eyes?)
The City just did a zoning remap in 2004 to prevent community character destroying large developments from plopping down in 3 flat areas. Clarendon Park (Uptown Area 6) was ---according to the City presentation ---being rezoned from RT5 down to RT4 or RT 4.5 to preserve the existing density.
Residential RM-5 permits building up to 47 ft. The planned development scam is allowing the city and developer to avoid the normal area zoning restrictions to cram in the highest level use there is (aside from being an industrial plant.)
The PD should have matched the surrounding residential zoning and gone, at most to Business/Commercial B-3 with heights up to 50-60ft. Instead the rammed it all the up to the top, B-5, which allows 50-75 feet on top of the garage space.
So Phase 1 will be an 85 foot tall square box built out to the sidewalks on the North East corner of Montrose & Clarendon. Hey, it will match Wilson Yards. What an amazing coincidence. It will have retail, at most, on the 1st and 2nd floor even if it does have a 60,000 ft grocery (and hell freezes over.)
Then what is in the big square 85 foot tall box on the next 6 floors? Hey they're getting bumped up to the highest permitted zoning and they can do anything. The can pack that sucker with 20' x 10' dwelling units up to their development max of 1050.
Sounding more like Wilson Yards every day. After all, they even admit that the economy will never turn around in within the 6 years they need to start development or loose their upzone. So, why did they need to get hotel zoning when they know that the economy will never support an Uptown hotel or fill the 40% vacancy hotels begging for business downtown. (Remember all that lost convention trade you've seen on the news.)
What else do you suppose requires that zoning class? Come on, you know. I don't have to tell you.
They may never get around to putting up those luxury towers that they STILL CAN'T GET FINANCING TO BUILD.
Sedgwick Properties Development Corp’s Application for Zoning District Changes are:
ReplyDeleteFrom: RM-5 residential and Institutional Planned Development no 138
To: B3-5 and then to Business Residential Planned Development
According to Title 17 Zoning Ordinance
17-3-0101 Generally. ‘The “B” and “C” (Business and Commercial) districts are intended to accommodate retail, service and commercial uses and to ensure that business and commercial-zoned areas are compatible with the character of the existing neighborhood.’
There are (3) B Business districts:
B1 Neighborhood Shopping District,
B2 Neighborhood Mixed-Use District
The B3 Community Shopping District is the largest in scale and is the most incompatible and out of character to the existing surrounding neighborhood.
B3, Community Shopping District.
17-3-0104-A. The primary purpose of the B3, Community Shopping district is to accommodate a very broad range of retail and service uses, often in the physical form of shopping centers or larger buildings than found in the B1 and B2 business districts, the B3 district is also intended to accommodate some types of uses that are not allowed in the B1 and B2 districts.
17-3-0104-B. Development in B3 districts will generally be destination-oriented, with a large percentage of customers arriving by automobile. Therefore the supply of off-street parking will tend to be higher in B3 districts than in B1 and B2 districts.
17-3-014-D. The B3 district is intended to be applied to large sites that have primary access to major streets. It may also be used along streets to accommodate retail and services use types that are not allowed in B1 and B2 districts.
17-3-0104-E The B3 district can be combined with the Dash 1 up to Dash 5 ( i.e.B3-5) bulk and density designations. (17-3-0401, 17-3-0402, 17-3-0403) Density refers to the number of dwelling units allowed per unit of land.
Density example:
A typical Chicago Lot is about 24 x 125’ or 3,125 square feet.
On a 3,125 square foot lot, the Minimum Lot Area per Dwelling Unit for a:
Dash 2 is 1,000 sf. --So a maximum of (3) 1,000sf dwelling units are allowed.
Dash 5 is 200 sf. --- So a maximum of (15) 200sf dwelling units are allowed.
"Tamzen Trott and Cory Muldoon were prominently listed as speakers "for" the TIF at the CDC meeting."
ReplyDeletethis is curious
if they spoke their comments would be in the transcript, the transcript is a legit FOIA target
if they did not speak they may have submitted letters of support, the letters are legit FOIA targets
"the "pay as you go" bit is new to this development. WY was done differently."
ReplyDeleteyes, WY was done differently, but no, "pay as you go" is not new to the Maryville TIF, it is in use in many TIF projects in Chicago
"pay as you go" is a characteristic of a TIF subsidy for a particular TIF project, not a characteristic of a TIF district
"pay as you go" means the city will not extend credit such as bond sales or city notes - the developer will not get public money up front in the forms of the proceeds of a bonds sale or a loan from the city
at the point where you draw a TIF district around an individual property owner's property, and fund that owner "pay as you go" it's equivalent to a property tax rebate, a property tax freeze for the 24-35 years at the 2010 level
"Target may have gotten a sweet deal on the land (understandbale enough), they have been shouldering the cost of their construction."
ReplyDeletemay I ask your source on this?
my understanding of the WY deal is we taxpayers built a bldg on spec for Target
I know you know the difference between build-out costs and construction costs
Target is not the recipient of any TIF funding - Hostein is the sole recipient of TIF funding in the WY project
then Target used federal subsidies for most of the purchase price of the bldg
"I inquired why they felt the need to make such a nice sum on the backs of our school children, who will suffer from lack of funds due to the TIF, and they also had no answer."
ReplyDeleteexcellent question, the key issue
the "pay as you go" shtick does nothing to ameliorate this issue
go walk this site - it is fucking LAKEFRONT, PARKSIDE property on the north side of the fucking CITY OF CHICAGO - if this project cannot possibly pay its fair share of property taxes than every new construction project in Chicago needs property tax relief and we sad sack home-owners should just throw in the towel
"I don't understand why TIFs should be used to build any kind of housing, even "affordable" housing."
ReplyDeleteThe main contribution of Chicago's TIF program to date has been condos - luxury condos, market rate condos - not even affordable condos.
"If the developer does not develop the property in 6 years, then it will revert back to it's prior zoning classification."
ReplyDeletemore likely the PD or a successor PD would be approved
and the zoning change is for ever - even if the PD expires the zoning change sticks, they are technically separate events
The developer has written his zoning application is a way that puts a certain number of units in each building. Then is has a another statement that says he can shift those units within the Planned Development area to any building he wants so long as the number of dwelling units does not exceed 1100. So, it why he keeps saying there are 875 units in the project spread in certain areas and those who have read the zoning application say there really are 1100 units and he can build just about any damned thing he wants. That's the beauty of a Planned Development combined with the city's mixed use zoning class.
ReplyDeletePerhaps I misspoke. There is beauty in the financial numbers for him but what he can build won't be beautiful or in character with the zoning of the surrounding community.
Hugh, remember what is pay-as-you go for the developer is port-to-the adjoining-TIF for the Alderbeast. So, increment can go for anything.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone out there realize that all the lots, from the city owned under the tennis court through the 5 Water Rec lots just eastof the tennis courts to Marine Drive are being sold to the developer? The planning department says, not to worry, they have it zoned in the PD so they can't place structures on those lots. But PD's cam be amended, just like the Maryville medical campus PD is being amended right now.
ReplyDeleteWhy does this make me nervous? If the Water Rec lots are being sold to the developer in exchange for developer land on the West side, how is this a community benefit for the Uptown Community?
may I ask your source on this?
ReplyDeleteIt was commonly repeated during the meeting.
truthbearer- I have been trying to get answers on this part of the issue. everyone keeps assuring me all park grounds will be replaced with park grounds...maybe its time to bring Friends of the Parks in? I don't trust any of this. I know that whats there has to go (meaning the old buildings, not the parks), but this whole thing stinks. There is NO demand for any of this imho.
ReplyDelete