What makes Wilson Yard exempt from Target's cut backs? They haven't started building at WY (the housing is first) and I don't see an official "Target Coming Soon" sign either..... And Holsten's poorly designed signs in Aldi's art cases don't count for much of anything. They look like a joke.
Even though I'd love Target to open in Uptown, I will 'believe' only after making my first purchase! As Miss Kitty noted, anything can happen in this economy ... especially given the fiasco that is Wilson Yard.
I grow tired of the seemingly endless string of "Target cutting ..." stories; but, with the way things are panning out with the economy and whatever the f*** this "stimulus" package is, who knows?
Granted, Target got a sweeter than sweet deal from the resident aldertroll and won't be incurring much (if any!) construction cost out of their own pockets.
But .. then ... those pockets aren't as deep as they were and, as miss kitty has said, there ain't much in the way of a Minneapolis-blessed, hard core, set in stone, message to the affirmative.
Each time this story peculates up, it's worth a post.
Considering how many times the WY story has changed, I won't believe anything until I see it happening.
And even then ...
Still - it's fun to think that Helen might be worried that the rug could get yanked out from beneath her grandiose plans to pack in as many po' folk as possible to keep her bong pipe dreams of a dependent class barely healthy and borderline miserable and looking to her to keep the freebies comin'.
Well, at last weeks meeting with the lawyers they, too, said that there is NOTHING from Target stating that they are opening. I think the opening of a Target at WY is the fantasy and not the reality. You can believe any story you like Sunnyside, but until Target opens it's doors for business it will remain a fantasy. I'm not sure why you are so certain they will come but I think you will be sorely disappointed. And if Helen had complete faith in this she would have provided hard evidence. Just because you don't believe doesn't mean they are not facts.
I'm lost... the "fact" that it doesn't apply? Do tell... where's this "fact" to be found? If you said "The Alderman's Office"... I'm sorry but you lose, thanks for playing. If you said "Peter Holsten"... sorry wrong again. These sources have no,zero,nil,nada credibility. If Helen or Peter told me the sun would come up tomorrow I'd want independant confirmation.
On what basis do people believe that Target is NOT coming? What about all of the transfers from Holsten/WY to a Target LLC? Target also "confirmed" their intentions with a couple of newspaper reporters.
I understand the healthy skepticism but could someone please connect the dots for me as to why I shouldn't believe that Target will be opening a store here given the property transfers and the public comments by the company? Thanks.
Speaking only for myself... if Target's VP of Real estate would come to Chicago, hold a press conference with Helen, Peter and da mare; sign binding commitment to the type of store and time commitment of more than a year. I'll be less skeptical.
"What about all of the transfers from Holsten/WY to a Target LLC? ... could someone please connect the dots for me as to why I shouldn't believe that Target will be opening a store here given the property transfers and the public comments by the company?"
I think I have taken a stab it this before but begging the patience of regular readers I will once again take that cue
please don't read too much into the 10/08 property transfers
Target got a multi-million dollar real estate asset for a price in the hundreds of thousands after tax credits and then signed a $1/year lease with themselves
nothing happened that can't be easily backed out of at great profit to Target, including leasing to a different tenant or selling outright
the land xfer & lease were NOT the ah-ha! finally skin-in-the-game moment in any sense
Target can own the land, that doesn't mean they are building there. There was a recent article (in the Trib I think and posted on UU) that said they selling off some of their real estate. They could sell off their parcel of land to Holsten tomorrow so he can build more low-income housing - who knows? And if they are building - where the heck is the usual, customary sign that goes up at a development where Target will be built?
And doesn't it strike you as odd that the housing (the NON REVENUE GENERATING portion of the project) is being built first?
The economy is in the gutter. I wouldn't bank on anything.
And most skepticism in this ward comes from people being lied to and lied to over and over again by Shiller. Just look at the original plans for WY and look at what we have today. She knew all along how she wanted WY to develop - all low income housing. That's why I am not buying anything the woman says.
I remember when the plan was unveiled in 2003 (or 2004) 180 units of "affordable" (i.e. low-income) housing was announced. The crowd went nuts thinking that there would be at least some market rate housing. Then, conveniently, Marc Kaplan was there questioning her why the development wasn't all low income housing (he stated 300+ units to be specific) and appeared (acting) angry with her. Now if that wasn't rehearsed, I don't know what was (Kaplan is her long-time hinchman and fellow poverty pimp). She was just trying to appear "middle of the road" all the while knowing that she has always wanted the whole parcel of land to be low income housing.
The woman has always had an ax to grind and that is to replace the low income housing that was displaced by Truman College. Yes, laugh, but go ahead and do your research. The woman has a 33 year+ vendetta to recoup housing lost in a slum clearance in the 70's. She needs to get with the times.
Thanks for the clarification Hugh. And I agree with you, Miss Kitty. The slum clearance drama surrounding Truman College still very much makes up how she sees the world and what she feels her responsibilities should be as alderman
"They could sell off their parcel of land to Holsten tomorrow so he can build more low-income housing "
Wouldn't that require a zoning change? Not to say they couldn't get one. Just saying, if you are legitimately afraid of this hypothetical senario - it would be a good idea to keep an eye out for zoning changes.
I think most of us will agree on the info dead end of the Alderman or Holsten. But has anyone contacted Target directly? If so, what was their response?
As for the housing being built first, I'd love to hear (ideally from someone who works in construction or real estate) if this is standard. I have nothing to back thing, but I assume that the buckets of money are different and the store involves more parties. More information on this would be appreciated.
I'm no Shiller fan, but I find the portrayal of her sneakily plotting to house more low-income people rather amusing. Not that it's incorrect, it's just hard to imagine someone being evil and helping people struggling to pay rent. Again - a agree that there is an unfair distribution of assisted housing in Uptown. But I'm sure at some point, before she got all twisted with politics and power, this seemed like humanitarianism. What it is now, I don't know.
Just to make it clear, Truman did not replace low income housing. The property was occupied with absentee landlord slums. Most had no heat or water but were occupied. Just the sort of housing the aldertroll sees in her bongnacious dreams.
And those of us with long memories remember that community activist Helen Shiller opposed Truman College because she felt the land should be used for low-income housing. She also opposed the Pegasus Players getting their own theatre space because the money should be used for (wait for it) low-income housing.
She is obsessed and obviously willing to sell herself out to Daley so he doesn't stand in her way of getting 100% low-income housing built at Wilson Yard, despite the fact that he goes around the rest of the city praising the destruction of 100% low-income towers. He ignores that Helen is building that very thing in Uptown.
I am willing to be pleasantly surprised if Target actually comes to Wilson Yard, but I think it's gonna be Big Lots and much more low income housing... since something has to take the place of the proposed Target.
When the fences first went up months ago, I stopped and talked to one of the construction workers. I asked him when the Target was going to be finished. He then laughed and said "There ain't a Target going in here". Not sure if he is a credible source, but this was right when the project kicked off, and I would think they let the workers know what they will be building. We are being conned folks. Contribute to FWY!!!
And again, as I said a few weeks ago, Target had meetings in NY on Dec 11 regarding animated digital signage for the WY store that would face the El tracks. One of the pitches was called "Bullseye in Motion." I've seen the concept presentation board.
No, of course, you're not going to get any "confirmation."
Target IS planning a store there. Though I don't know why Hugh's references to the real estate deals isn't enough to quell the conspiracy theories. Yes, it's entirely possible for Target to pull out, as he says. It's all planning at this point and could be scuttled.
But the intention is clearly there. Or, at least, it was as of the 11th.
Yes, I am using my real name. If you have any question about what side of the "fence" I'm on, just look me up in James's campaign finance disclosure docs.
When dealing with most normal people, we work under the assumption that they're telling the truth unless we see hard evidence that they're lying.
Helen has managed to reverse that dynamic with her ward so that we work under the assumption that she's lying, unless we see hard evidence to the contrary. For most of us, that will be the billboards that you're describing. Its sad that things have fallen this far in her relationship with the community, but the blame falls squarely on Helen's shoulders for this one.
No matter how many times this story gets posted, the fact that it doesn't apply to Wilson Yard remains.
ReplyDeleteLess scaremongering more facts please.
What makes Wilson Yard exempt from Target's cut backs? They haven't started building at WY (the housing is first) and I don't see an official "Target Coming Soon" sign either..... And Holsten's poorly designed signs in Aldi's art cases don't count for much of anything. They look like a joke.
ReplyDeleteI think anything can happen in this economy.
Even though I'd love Target to open in Uptown, I will 'believe' only after making my first purchase!
ReplyDeleteAs Miss Kitty noted, anything can happen in this economy ... especially given the fiasco that is Wilson Yard.
Exactly.
ReplyDeleteI grow tired of the seemingly endless string of "Target cutting ..." stories; but, with the way things are panning out with the economy and whatever the f*** this "stimulus" package is, who knows?
Granted, Target got a sweeter than sweet deal from the resident aldertroll and won't be incurring much (if any!) construction cost out of their own pockets.
But .. then ... those pockets aren't as deep as they were and, as miss kitty has said, there ain't much in the way of a Minneapolis-blessed, hard core, set in stone, message to the affirmative.
Each time this story peculates up, it's worth a post.
Considering how many times the WY story has changed, I won't believe anything until I see it happening.
And even then ...
Still - it's fun to think that Helen might be worried that the rug could get yanked out from beneath her grandiose plans to pack in as many po' folk as possible to keep her bong pipe dreams of a dependent class barely healthy and borderline miserable and looking to her to keep the freebies comin'.
Sunnyside,
ReplyDeleteI agree with your facts v. scaremongering position, but I wonder how you are so sure.
But it is a sad state of affairs when people in the community SO don't trust thier alderman that they truely believe Target is just an outright lie.
Well, at last weeks meeting with the lawyers they, too, said that there is NOTHING from Target stating that they are opening. I think the opening of a Target at WY is the fantasy and not the reality. You can believe any story you like Sunnyside, but until Target opens it's doors for business it will remain a fantasy. I'm not sure why you are so certain they will come but I think you will be sorely disappointed. And if Helen had complete faith in this she would have provided hard evidence. Just because you don't believe doesn't mean they are not facts.
ReplyDeleteWell, I agree that these are not facts neccesarily relevant to the Wilson Yard project.
ReplyDeleteI'm lost... the "fact" that it doesn't apply? Do tell... where's this "fact" to be found? If you said "The Alderman's Office"... I'm sorry but you lose, thanks for playing. If you said "Peter Holsten"... sorry wrong again. These sources have no,zero,nil,nada credibility. If Helen or Peter told me the sun would come up tomorrow I'd want independant confirmation.
ReplyDeleteOn what basis do people believe that Target is NOT coming? What about all of the transfers from Holsten/WY to a Target LLC? Target also "confirmed" their intentions with a couple of newspaper reporters.
ReplyDeleteI understand the healthy skepticism but could someone please connect the dots for me as to why I shouldn't believe that Target will be opening a store here given the property transfers and the public comments by the company? Thanks.
Speaking only for myself... if Target's VP of Real estate would come to Chicago, hold a press conference with Helen, Peter and da mare; sign binding commitment to the type of store and time commitment of more than a year. I'll be less skeptical.
ReplyDelete"What about all of the transfers from Holsten/WY to a Target LLC? ... could someone please connect the dots for me as to why I shouldn't believe that Target will be opening a store here given the property transfers and the public comments by the company?"
ReplyDeleteI think I have taken a stab it this before but begging the patience of regular readers I will once again take that cue
please don't read too much into the 10/08 property transfers
Target got a multi-million dollar real estate asset for a price in the hundreds of thousands after tax credits and then signed a $1/year lease with themselves
nothing happened that can't be easily backed out of at great profit to Target, including leasing to a different tenant or selling outright
the land xfer & lease were NOT the ah-ha! finally skin-in-the-game moment in any sense
Target can own the land, that doesn't mean they are building there. There was a recent article (in the Trib I think and posted on UU) that said they selling off some of their real estate. They could sell off their parcel of land to Holsten tomorrow so he can build more low-income housing - who knows? And if they are building - where the heck is the usual, customary sign that goes up at a development where Target will be built?
ReplyDeleteAnd doesn't it strike you as odd that the housing (the NON REVENUE GENERATING portion of the project) is being built first?
The economy is in the gutter. I wouldn't bank on anything.
And most skepticism in this ward comes from people being lied to and lied to over and over again by Shiller. Just look at the original plans for WY and look at what we have today. She knew all along how she wanted WY to develop - all low income housing. That's why I am not buying anything the woman says.
I remember when the plan was unveiled in 2003 (or 2004) 180 units of "affordable" (i.e. low-income) housing was announced. The crowd went nuts thinking that there would be at least some market rate housing. Then, conveniently, Marc Kaplan was there questioning her why the development wasn't all low income housing (he stated 300+ units to be specific) and appeared (acting) angry with her. Now if that wasn't rehearsed, I don't know what was (Kaplan is her long-time hinchman and fellow poverty pimp). She was just trying to appear "middle of the road" all the while knowing that she has always wanted the whole parcel of land to be low income housing.
The woman has always had an ax to grind and that is to replace the low income housing that was displaced by Truman College. Yes, laugh, but go ahead and do your research. The woman has a 33 year+ vendetta to recoup housing lost in a slum clearance in the 70's. She needs to get with the times.
Thanks for the clarification Hugh. And I agree with you, Miss Kitty. The slum clearance drama surrounding Truman College still very much makes up how she sees the world and what she feels her responsibilities should be as alderman
ReplyDelete"They could sell off their parcel of land to Holsten tomorrow so he can build more low-income housing "
ReplyDeleteWouldn't that require a zoning change? Not to say they couldn't get one. Just saying, if you are legitimately afraid of this hypothetical senario - it would be a good idea to keep an eye out for zoning changes.
I think most of us will agree on the info dead end of the Alderman or Holsten. But has anyone contacted Target directly? If so, what was their response?
As for the housing being built first, I'd love to hear (ideally from someone who works in construction or real estate) if this is standard. I have nothing to back thing, but I assume that the buckets of money are different and the store involves more parties. More information on this would be appreciated.
I'm no Shiller fan, but I find the portrayal of her sneakily plotting to house more low-income people rather amusing. Not that it's incorrect, it's just hard to imagine someone being evil and helping people struggling to pay rent. Again - a agree that there is an unfair distribution of assisted housing in Uptown. But I'm sure at some point, before she got all twisted with politics and power, this seemed like humanitarianism. What it is now, I don't know.
" ... I assume that the buckets of money are different ... "
ReplyDeleteon paper there are separate Holsten-controlled LLCs for the retail, senior housing, and low-income housing
in reality Holsten is GC for the whole shooting match, so there's really just one big bucket at Holsten World HQ
" ... more low-income housing. Wouldn't that require a zoning change?"
ReplyDeletethere is a planned development doc
it authorizes the City Commish of Planning & Development to make minor changes w/o public process
for an idea of what they consider minor, recall the movie theaters were axed and replaced with more retail with no public process
Just to make it clear, Truman did not replace low income housing. The property was occupied with absentee landlord slums. Most had no heat or water but were occupied. Just the sort of housing the aldertroll sees in her bongnacious dreams.
ReplyDeleteAnd those of us with long memories remember that community activist Helen Shiller opposed Truman College because she felt the land should be used for low-income housing. She also opposed the Pegasus Players getting their own theatre space because the money should be used for (wait for it) low-income housing.
ReplyDeleteShe is obsessed and obviously willing to sell herself out to Daley so he doesn't stand in her way of getting 100% low-income housing built at Wilson Yard, despite the fact that he goes around the rest of the city praising the destruction of 100% low-income towers. He ignores that Helen is building that very thing in Uptown.
I am willing to be pleasantly surprised if Target actually comes to Wilson Yard, but I think it's gonna be Big Lots and much more low income housing... since something has to take the place of the proposed Target.
When the fences first went up months ago, I stopped and talked to one of the construction workers. I asked him when the Target was going to be finished. He then laughed and said "There ain't a Target going in here". Not sure if he is a credible source, but this was right when the project kicked off, and I would think they let the workers know what they will be building. We are being conned folks. Contribute to FWY!!!
ReplyDeleteWOW
ReplyDeleteEYE IN THE SKY, that is very interesting, if indeed true.
Who else, but the workers themselves would know what they're building??
And as people have noted, the posters in the Aldi display cases look like sinister propaganda posters.
But all we get from the 46th Ward office is, "nothing has changed from the original plans"
And again, as I said a few weeks ago, Target had meetings in NY on Dec 11 regarding animated digital signage for the WY store that would face the El tracks. One of the pitches was called "Bullseye in Motion." I've seen the concept presentation board.
ReplyDeleteNo, of course, you're not going to get any "confirmation."
Target IS planning a store there. Though I don't know why Hugh's references to the real estate deals isn't enough to quell the conspiracy theories. Yes, it's entirely possible for Target to pull out, as he says. It's all planning at this point and could be scuttled.
But the intention is clearly there. Or, at least, it was as of the 11th.
Yes, I am using my real name. If you have any question about what side of the "fence" I'm on, just look me up in James's campaign finance disclosure docs.
Hal,
ReplyDeleteWhen dealing with most normal people, we work under the assumption that they're telling the truth unless we see hard evidence that they're lying.
Helen has managed to reverse that dynamic with her ward so that we work under the assumption that she's lying, unless we see hard evidence to the contrary. For most of us, that will be the billboards that you're describing. Its sad that things have fallen this far in her relationship with the community, but the blame falls squarely on Helen's shoulders for this one.
Eagle -
ReplyDeleteThat makes absolutely no sense.
When you start treating your allies like your enemy, you lose sympathy and support.